Everything in Gods Plan...

[LisaS]

Unexpected but NOT an accident, Conceived in the mind of God, Image-bearer created for eternal destiny, Fashioned by His hand- and perfectly planned!


Above is a pro-life statement. Do pro-life people really believe that God plans everything, the rape victim that gets pregnant, the child who gets sexually abused and pregnant? Really? Can someone shed some light on this? Im not going into pro-choice or pro-life I really just want to know if what i have asked is true?

[Aeonkat]

I don't know but those reasons are why I think that statement is a crock of shit and I dare any religious person to explain how it is God's plan for a 5 year old to be raped or a baby to be beaten to death.

[LisaS]

exactly

[Crabbie]

I'm prochoice and no, I don't believe god really plans everything.

Adding, I think that statement is geared for the accidental pregnancy that can happen among consenting adults. Not for all the unimaginable things that happen to cause pregnancy.

[Tweet]

Any time I've ever asked that question I'vebeen told that sometimes we "just don't know why" or that God can't control free will. It's always sounded like bull to me.

[BoobySnacks]

I am also prolife and I think that there are many things that God wishes could be done differently and most certainly does not plan baby beatings and all of the rapes in the world.

[RedheadbyChoice]

I'm pro-life (but also very pro-choice) and I do believe that God knows all and knows what will happen. Whether that's planned by Him or that He knows what will happen, IDK.

I don't think that anything that happens is a surprise to God.

[tata]

I am a spiritual person. I speak only for myself - a self-identifying Christian (albeit an unconventional one) - and not for any other person or any religion in part or as a whole.

According to my faith, God has given all men and women the gift of Free Will. Men and women are free to do what they choose. This is God's plan: that men and women will create and reconcile their karmic debt and eventually all souls shall return Home to become One again. It is my faith that these terrible things we mortals call "tragedies" are the result of souls sacrificing themselves for the gain and growth of other(s) who may either (1) need experience or (2) have karmic debt to reconcile.

[Aeonkat]

I am a spiritual person. I speak only for myself - a self-identifying Christian (albeit an unconventional one) - and not for any other person or any religion in part or as a whole.

According to my faith, God has given all men and women the gift of Free Will. Men and women are free to do what they choose. This is God's plan: that men and women will create and reconcile their karmic debt and eventually all souls shall return Home to become One again. It is my faith that these terrible things we mortals call "tragedies" are the result of souls sacrificing themselves for the gain and growth of other(s) who may either (1) need experience or (2) have karmic debt to reconcile.


Explain to me how a child being raped reconciles any debt or experience or growth of others.

[QuiltyConscience]

Unexpected but NOT an accident, Conceived in the mind of God, Image-bearer created for eternal destiny, Fashioned by His hand- and perfectly planned!


Above is a pro-life statement. Do pro-life people really believe that God plans everything, the rape victim that gets pregnant, the child who gets sexually abused and pregnant? Really? Can someone shed some light on this? Im not going into pro-choice or pro-life I really just want to know if what i have asked is true?


No. Not all prolife people think exactly the same thing.
I don't know who came up with that statement above, I imagine it reflects their own views and not those of every single prolife person.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I am a spiritual person. I speak only for myself - a self-identifying Christian (albeit an unconventional one) - and not for any other person or any religion in part or as a whole.

According to my faith, God has given all men and women the gift of Free Will. Men and women are free to do what they choose. This is God's plan: that men and women will create and reconcile their karmic debt and eventually all souls shall return Home to become One again. It is my faith that these terrible things we mortals call "tragedies" are the result of souls sacrificing themselves for the gain and growth of other(s) who may either (1) need experience or (2) have karmic debt to reconcile.
Where is the "free will" for the person who gets raped? Why should a teenager who is raped by her own father used for the "gain and growth" of others? IMO, that's a pretty sick way of thinking.

[BeanBabies]

I don't know but those reasons are why I think that statement is a crock of shit and I dare any religious person to explain how it is God's plan for a 5 year old to be raped or a baby to be beaten to death.

I'll join you on that one.

[BeanBabies]

I am a spiritual person. I speak only for myself - a self-identifying Christian (albeit an unconventional one) - and not for any other person or any religion in part or as a whole.

According to my faith, God has given all men and women the gift of Free Will. Men and women are free to do what they choose. This is God's plan: that men and women will create and reconcile their karmic debt and eventually all souls shall return Home to become One again. It is my faith that these terrible things we mortals call "tragedies" are the result of souls sacrificing themselves for the gain and growth of other(s) who may either (1) need experience or (2) have karmic debt to reconcile.

I don't even understand this.

[tata]

I suppose I should've read the question in the OP more thoroughly considering I'm pro-choice. Especially considering...

Explain to me how a child being raped reconciles any debt or experience or growth of others.

Where is the "free will" for the person who gets raped? Why should a teenager who is raped by her own father used for the "gain and growth" of others? IMO, that's a pretty sick way of thinking.
You don't have to understand it, Judy. It's alright if you don't. But don't call my faith sick. It really offends me that you always say shit like this in threads that have anything to do with God. I can't count the number of times you have used the word "sick" in reference to someone else's beliefs.

I'd answer the questions above, but really, considering how vocal you both are on this board about your disdain for all things Christian, I'm not sure what purpose it would serve. I'm not going to put my faith under the microscope for you to dissect. It's faith. I can't prove it. I don't believe I can give to you any more than I believe you can take it from me. But I will say this: People don't always get to choose what happens to them, but they DO get to choose what they do with it.

[TuetonicWillow]

Every October I have a hard time with the anniversary of the birth and death of my first baby. When it comes up and is discussed, there is always someone that tells me it was all part of God's plan for me.

Funny, God must have planned for me not to believe that. Can't decide who that joke is on.

I think believing in free will and god's so-called plan is like saying it's night AND day out at the same time. You can't have it both ways. It's where a lot of religion loses me.

[QuiltyConscience]

Where is the "free will" for the person who gets raped? Why should a teenager who is raped by her own father used for the "gain and growth" of others? IMO, that's a pretty sick way of thinking.

Judy, people do horrible things that hurt others every day. Free will, IMO, is simply that humans make their own choices and are not forced by a higher being to behave in any certain way.

[JudyJudyJudy]

You don't have to understand it, Judy. It's alright if you don't. But don't call my faith sick. It really offends me that you always say shit like this in threads that have anything to do with God. I can't count the number of times you have used the word "sick" in reference to someone else's beliefs.
You are so fucking full of shit. Since there are so many such instances, perhaps you should give some examples instead of simply throwing out accusations. Regardless, I'll stand by my comment to you that if you think that a person who is raped is "getting it" for the good of others or in some way deserves it, then, yeah, that's beyond fucking sick.



I'd answer the questions above, but really, considering how vocal you both are on this board about your disdain for all things Christian,
LMFAO. I have defended Christians many, many times on this board. Get your fucking facts straight before you make your accusations.

[QuiltyConscience]

Serious Question, what are people meaning when they say free will? Do you not believe that people make decisions and do things of their own accord? And that things happen beyond our control?

[JudyJudyJudy]

Judy, people do horrible things that hurt others every day. Free will, IMO, is simply that humans make their own choices and are not forced by a higher being to behave in any certain way.
What about my second question?

[QuiltyConscience]

What about my second question?

Judy I didn't quite understand your second question.

Why should a teenager who is raped by her own father used for the "gain and growth" of others?

I don't don't see any good in that situation at all.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Judy I didn't quite understand your second question.



I don't don't see any good in that situation at all.
That was a question I asked to Tata in response to her response. I don't see any good in that situation, either, which is why I asked.

[QuiltyConscience]

I am a bit confused over the free will issue. people seem to be bristling at t he idea of free will, and I'm wondering if we are talking about the same thing.

[JudyJudyJudy]

No, Quilty, I see what you're saying about free will. This, said by tata, is what I'm now questioning:

It is my faith that these terrible things we mortals call "tragedies" are the result of souls sacrificing themselves for the gain and growth of other(s) who may either (1) need experience or (2) have karmic debt to reconcile.

[BeanBabies]

That's the part I don't get.

Judy - could you put that in non-religious terms for me? What I'm getting is the person got raped by another soul who was sacrificing himself/herself for the betterment of the person who got raped?

[JudyJudyJudy]

Bean, I don't know how to put it in any terms, religious or not, that make any sense.

[RedheadbyChoice]

I'm not trying to speak for Tata, but in my belief system, there is no 'karmic debt to reconcile'.

[Aeonkat]

That's the part I don't get.

Judy - could you put that in non-religious terms for me? What I'm getting is the person got raped by another soul who was sacrificing himself/herself for the betterment of the person who got raped?


Any god that thinks my karmic debt is to be repaid by being raped is evil imo and y'all have been duped.

I'll join the "sick" group on this.

Tata....how would you feel if someone said this to YOU after a tragedy to yourself or child? How would you feel to hear that it was a karmic debt you or your child had to repay? Would 'sick' come to mind or wold you be accepting?

[Aeonkat]

Bean, I don't know how to put it in any terms, religious or not, that make any sense.


Yep. The "Problem of Evil" is one of the many reasons that logically disproves religion for me. It's almost sad when I see the religious try and make sense of it when truly they have no business even trying.

[BeanBabies]

The karmic debt part is what I don't get. Are we reading it the same Judy, or am I out in left field?

[QuiltyConscience]

Yep. The "Problem of Evil" is one of the many reasons that logically disproves religion for me. It's almost sad when I see the religious try and make sense of it when truly they have no business even trying.

What? Religious people have no business even trying to make sense of evil in the world? What are you saying exactly?

[RedheadbyChoice]

Indeed, why can they not try, if it gives them, or others of their same mind-set, comfort?

[JudyJudyJudy]

The karmic debt part is what I don't get. Are we reading it the same Judy, or am I out in left field?
I guess we're reading it the same. I'm not understanding any of that last sentence I quoted by tata. Tata claims that I'm being anti-Christian for saying that's sick, but I don't know of any Christians who even claim the things she is saying. Perhaps I'm being anti-"some other relgious belief" instead.

[Aeonkat]

What? Religious people have no business even trying to make sense of evil in the world? What are you saying exactly?


Sense of other people's tragedies. It's not right. They can't help themselves either sometimes. It's like they need to to reconcile their religion in their mind and in doing so hurts the people they should be helping.

[BeanBabies]

Because it's akin to wearing blinders when one makes excuses for everything.

Not to mention a dash mind-boggling why one would revere a being who would impart these atrocities on people.

[bocarioja]

Yep. The "Problem of Evil" is one of the many reasons that logically disproves religion for me.

Good for you.

It's almost sad when I see the religious try and make sense of it when truly they have no business even trying.

I too, would like an explation of this statement. At face value, it's really insulting.

[QuiltyConscience]

Okay, I understand what you are saying. But I don't think this is limited to just religious people. It's difficult to make sense of a tragedy, no matter if one is religious or not.

[Aeonkat]

Because it's akin to wearing blinders when one makes excuses for everything.

Not to mention a dash mind-boggling why one would revere a being who would impart these atrocities on people.


Not to mention chastise those who feel that way by saying our minds are too 'small' to try to understand this grand plan he has or disagree with it.

[Aeonkat]

Okay, I understand what you are saying. But I don't think this is limited to just religious people. It's difficult to make sense of a tragedy, no matter if one is religious or not.


Ok yes. But we are specifically discussing the "God's plan" comments so I stick to that. And generally only religious folk say that.

[QuiltyConscience]

Because it's akin to wearing blinders when one makes excuses for everything.

Not to mention a dash mind-boggling why one would revere a being who would impart these atrocities on people.

I don't see it as God doing these things to people. I see it as people doing these things to other people.

[BeanBabies]

Okay, I understand what you are saying. But I don't think this is limited to just religious people. It's difficult to make sense of a tragedy, no matter if one is religious or not.

Well, that's why we're wondering why Tata would try to justify it under the facade of "karma".

Thanks Judy. I was a bit boggled there.

[BeanBabies]

I don't see it as God doing these things to people. I see it as people doing these things to other people.

Which is why I'm directing my questions towards Tata and those who also try to justify these instances as god's will and karmic retribution.

[Aeonkat]

QC...do you feel god ever steps in, say like a miracle, and helps someone out? Since he is all knowing and all powerful, why not stop his child from being brutally raped and killed? Why not then, but supposedly helps with these miracles I hear about? Is he not all powerful then? Un-empathetic?

[Aeonkat]

Honest questions. They are at the core of why I do not believe. None of the explanations of God makes sense so I dismiss any and all if the bible is wrong and contradicting on so many things. Like being all merciful and wrathful at the same time.

[Tweet]

The questions in this thread are pretty much why I just can't seem to make myself believe in any supreme being that would allow these things to happen and yet supposedly create miracles elsewhere. I just can't understand it. However, I'm not prepared to call those people that do believe as "sick".

[bocarioja]

So only in a perfect world will g-d/God exist?

[Tweet]

So only in a perfect world will g-d/God exist?


Are you asking me? I'm of the opinion that I won't know until I die. I do not actively believe in any supreme being.

[hidesome]

I'm anti-killing. I also don't believe in pre-ordination. Put another way, I don't believe that God has a specific plan for us anymore than we have specific plans for our children. Sure, I expect that God has certain expectations, rules, and hopes for us just as I have certain expectations, rules, and hopes for my children.

To the question of "why doesn't God intervene in the case of evil?", I think the answer is that you cannot have it both ways. Once God intervenes in a large evil, why would he stop there? At some point, there would be no such thing as free will. If there is one thing that is crystal clear in Genesus, it is that we have free will to do both good and evil.

[BeanBabies]

So, then how can God be responsible for miracles if he cannot be responsible for evil?

[Tweet]

So, then how can God be responsible for miracles if he cannot be responsible for evil?


This has never made sense to me, either.

[Aeonkat]

So only in a perfect world will g-d/God exist?


As how the bible describes, that would be the only way to make sense.

[bocarioja]

Are you asking me? I'm of the opinion that I won't know until I die. I do not actively believe in any supreme being.

I wasn't asking anyone in particular. It just seemed like the next logical question after, "Why doesn't god stop bad/evil things from happening?"

BUT, Tweet... Maybe I'm reading more into this than you intended, but if you do not believe in any supreme being, then why would death make a difference?

[QuiltyConscience]

I'm anti-killing. I also don't believe in pre-ordination. Put another way, I don't believe that God has a specific plan for us anymore than we have specific plans for our children. Sure, I expect that God has certain expectations, rules, and hopes for us just as I have certain expectations, rules, and hopes for my children.

To the question of "why doesn't God intervene in the case of evil?", I think the answer is that you cannot have it both ways. Once God intervenes in a large evil, why would he stop there? At some point, there would be no such thing as free will. If there is one thing that is crystal clear in Genesus, it is that we have free will to do both good and evil.

ITA.
And to answer your question Aeon, no, I do not think that God steps in to do little favors for people. I think things just happen as they happen, both good and bad.

I do think that a lot of people have something marvelous happen and attribute it to a Miracle, or a sign from God. Others will attribute it to Good luck or fate.

[bocarioja]

As how the bible describes, that would be the only way to make sense.

If we're interpreting the same part of the bible, the same way (which is impossible) then perfection is only possible in the afterlife "heaven" for those that are believers and follow God/g-d's path at one point in their lives. (eta)... Life on Earth...

I have never read in the bible or its many versions where simply believing in g-d guarantees a life free of suffering and evil.

To me (and this is where we differ) suffering and evil proves that there is a need for me to believe in a g-d. Even if s/he can/won't stop it, I still find comfort in prayer. Not so much religion anymore... but faith itself. I've been through a lot of suffering and evil in my lifetime, and without my faith, I don't know how I would have put one foot in front of the other.

[Tweet]

I wasn't asking anyone in particular. It just seemed like the next logical question after, "Why doesn't god stop bad/evil things from happening?"

BUT, Tweet... Maybe I'm reading more into this than you intended, but if you do not believe in any supreme being, then why would death make a difference?


What I'm saying is I don't really know and won't know until that time comes. I don't, however, have any strong faith. So, I believe that I just don't have the answers. I'm saying that I could very well be wrong. I just don't have that strong feeling of faith. It means I'm agnostic.

[tata]

I'm not sure that I ought to even bother, but I will try to explain.

Specifically, I will give you an example from my own life.

One childhood friend of mine, S, now 32 years old, is the youngest of 3. Her father died when she was 2. Her mom has had a lot of health problems: she suffers from diabetes and asthma and has beaten cancer. S's two older brothers are both mentally disabled. The oldest brother is schizophrenic. The younger has autism. Her mom will hafta take care of her two sons for the rest of her life. She never remarried after her husband died or even dated.

Thing is, this woman is absolutely the sweetest person ever. How could such terrible things have happened to her? Why? And her sons? Why do they deserve such a fate? Well, it is my belief that perhaps in a past life, she did bad things. Perhaps the souls of her boys have made a sacrifice to help her pay that karmic debt. Obviously, I can't prove it. I'm not even sure if *that* is what's going on with these people because frankly, that's between each one of them and God and has nothing to do with me. It is just an example to illustrate my belief that some souls have sacrificed themselves to help another pay a karmic debt.

Again, I do not consider myself a conventional Christian. I embrace concepts like astrology and karma in my faith. My beliefs about souls making sacrifice for others for various reasons has been questioned by people from all walks of faith (or none at all) I've discussed religion with. I'm not interested in making others believe as I do. I feel that faith (or lack thereof) is personal.

Sure, believing in a Higher Power helps people make sense of tragedies. But I'm really put off by the insinuation that my faith is "making excuses for everything" or that I'm wearing "blinders."

Judy, as you well know, the boards have totally wiped clean, otherwise I'd be happy to present evidence of your insulting attitude towards others' beliefs. I'll be sure to make note of it next time, though.

[bocarioja]

What I'm saying is I don't really know and won't know until that time comes. I don't, however, have any strong faith. So, I believe that I just don't have the answers. I'm saying that I could very well be wrong. I just don't have that strong feeling of faith. It means I'm agnostic.

So if someone knocked on your door, on the right day, when you are in the right frame of mind... you might buy a vacuum? (picture the Jim Carey scene from Dumb and Dumber..."So what you're saying is I do have a 1 in a 100000000000 chance? ALRIGHT!)

I am not trying to make a case for one believing one way or another. Believe what ever *you* (general) want.

*I* happen to believe that irrational as it may seem, the power of prayer and faith have helped me through *my* darkest hours. Especially recently. I still have my doubts when it comes to the intentions of many organized religions... especially the Catholic Church where I "belong."

Whether it was my own mind, or the power of a higher body... I'm still greatful for it. Good for me, right?

[tata]

If we're interpreting the same part of the bible, the same way (which is impossible) then perfection is only possible in the afterlife "heaven" for those that are believers and follow God/g-d's path at one point in their lives. (eta)... Life on Earth...

I have never read in the bible or its many versions where simply believing in g-d guarantees a life free of suffering and evil.

To me (and this is where we differ) suffering and evil proves that there is a need for me to believe in a g-d. Even if s/he can/won't stop it, I still find comfort in prayer. Not so much religion anymore... but faith itself. I've been through a lot of suffering and evil in my lifetime, and without my faith, I don't know how I would have put one foot in front of the other.


So if someone knocked on your door, on the right day, when you are in the right frame of mind... you might buy a vacuum? (picture the Jim Carey scene from Dumb and Dumber..."So what you're saying is I do have a 1 in a 100000000000 chance? ALRIGHT!)

I am not trying to make a case for one believing one way or another. Believe what ever *you* (general) want.

*I* happen to believe that irrational as it may seem, the power of prayer and faith have helped me through *my* darkest hours. Especially recently. I still have my doubts when it comes to the intentions of many organized religions... especially the Catholic Church where I "belong."

Whether it was my own mind, or the power of a higher body... I'm still greatful for it. Good for me, right?

I don't really have anything to respond to here, but I wanted to say that your posts are very thought-provoking for me. Thanks :)

I have been in a long-winded phase of rebelling against organized religion. I have a hard time with the concept of stuffing God into a box and calling it "Christianity" or "insert religion of your choice." But I do have faith. I identify as a Christian. I pray.

[Tweet]

So if someone knocked on your door, on the right day, when you are in the right frame of mind... you might buy a vacuum? (picture the Jim Carey scene from Dumb and Dumber..."So what you're saying is I do have a 1 in a 100000000000 chance? ALRIGHT!)

I am not trying to make a case for one believing one way or another. Believe what ever *you* (general) want.

*I* happen to believe that irrational as it may seem, the power of prayer and faith have helped me through *my* darkest hours. Especially recently. I still have my doubts when it comes to the intentions of many organized religions... especially the Catholic Church where I "belong."

Whether it was my own mind, or the power of a higher body... I'm still greatful for it. Good for me, right?


Well, no, I don't think it would be as easy as that. That actually makes light of what's been a pretty profound thing in my life. I'm not going to type the whole backstory, but I just believe now that I do not have the answers.

And really, I have no opinion of your faith or anyone else's. The only times I've ever been bothered at all is when it's been pushed on me.

[bocarioja]

Well, no, I don't think it would be as easy as that. That actually makes light of what's been a pretty profound thing in my life. I'm not going to type the whole backstory, but I just believe now that I do not have the answers.

I apologize for that. I wasn't making fun, just trying to use a line from a horrible move to create a bad analogy.

And really, I have no opinion of your faith or anyone else's. The only times I've ever been bothered at all is when it's been pushed on me.

I agree on the pushing one's religion/beliefs. I have no answers either. I was just wondering why a sigificant event like death may cause one to re-examine strong held beliefs.

[Tweet]

I figured you were not trying to make fun, boca. And, I just say "death" because I assume that's what I've always been taught..that you go to heaven or hell.

Judy and others (bad memory) do you think it is really fair to call Tata's belief sick? I mean, are you prepared to say that most faiths are sick?

[JudyJudyJudy]

Judy, as you well know, the boards have totally wiped clean, otherwise I'd be happy to present evidence of your insulting attitude towards others' beliefs. I'll be sure to make note of it next time, though.
Yes, I do think that your ideas that people suffer because of their past are pretty sick. Likewise, I think that many Hindu beliefs that hold people down are sick and that Christians who teach that homosexuals are going to hell are sick. I think Fred Phelps is sick, too. Start your notebook now so that you have it accurate.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Judy and others (bad memory) do you think it is really fair to call Tata's belief sick? I mean, are you prepared to say that most faiths are sick?
I think that many beliefs are sick. No one bats an idea at calling Fred Phelps being called sick; is there a line drawn somewhere?

[Tweet]

Well, I guess there is a line for me. I don't agree with Tata's faith and can't say I even understand it. But to me that is different than Fred Phelps and his ilk doing what they do at funerals. Or, the belief that it's God's will for old men to marry little14 year old girls. I don't see Tatas belief hurting anyone.

Now, the line also gets blurry for me. I actually think the whole concept of a literal hell is scary and manipulative and mean. I hate being told I'm going to hell and I get downright resentful when I've felt that some albeit well meaning family members try to "save" my children.

[bocarioja]

I think that many beliefs are sick. No one bats an idea at calling Fred Phelps being called sick; is there a line drawn somewhere?

Good question. Some are willing to draw that line a little further left, right north... south... which ever way the wind blows... what ever suits them at the moment.

I personally draw the line at sick when it becomes judgemental and condescending if for no other reason than to win an arguement.

Faith in my eyes has never equaled pride or being right to prove others worng.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Well, I guess there is a line for me. I don't agree with Tata's faith and can't say I even understand it. But to me that is different than Fred Phelps and his ilk doing what they do at funerals. Or, the belief that it's God's will for old men to marry little14 year old girls. I don't see Tatas belief hurting anyone.
Actually, yes, her beliefs can very well hurt someone. When she states her beliefs, how do you think the person who is suffering greatly or whose kids are suffering greatly feels to be told it's because of something she did wrong in a past life?

[tata]

Yes, I do think that your ideas that people suffer because of their past are pretty sick. Likewise, I think that many Hindu beliefs that hold people down are sick and that Christians who teach that homosexuals are going to hell are sick. I think Fred Phelps is sick, too. Start your notebook now so that you have it accurate.

So noted.

[tata]

Actually, yes, her beliefs can very well hurt someone. When she states her beliefs, how do you think the person who is suffering greatly or whose kids are suffering greatly feels to be told it's because of something she did wrong in a past life?
What makes you so certain that I would do such a thing? These are *MY* beliefs and I would never tell someone that they should suck it up because it's only comeuppance. Sheese.

Why not turn things around? When you state your disbelief, how do you think people who are suffering feel that you discount their faith in the face of that suffering? For many people, faith is all they have.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Why not turn things around? When you state your disbelief, how do you think people who are suffering feel that you discount their faith in the face of that suffering? For many people, faith is all they have.
Perhaps, but since I live in an area where I'm afraid to state my disbelief, it ain't likely to happen. "lol9"

[Tweet]

Actually, yes, her beliefs can very well hurt someone. When she states her beliefs, how do you think the person who is suffering greatly or whose kids are suffering greatly feels to be told it's because of something she did wrong in a past life?

I agree that could be very hurtful. I don't assume she's going around telling people that suffer that, though.

[tata]

Actually, yes, her beliefs can very well hurt someone. When she states her beliefs, how do you think the person who is suffering greatly or whose kids are suffering greatly feels to be told it's because of something she did wrong in a past life?
The more I think about this, the more fucked up I think your perceptions of faith must be. Seriously, my beliefs are nothing more than that - they are my beliefs. The very concept of beliefs is personal. They aren't going to get up and bitch slap the next guy whose ideals are different. If you are prepared to tell people (or even just think) that their beliefs are sick rather than simply disagreeing with them, well then damn, you must go around finding offense in every minute of your day outside of the home!

I disagree that homosexuals will go to hell for being attracted to members of their own gender or acting on that attraction in a sexual way. However, I don't think people who do believe homosexuals are going to hell are sick. They simply believe differently than I do. In fact, I'm not convinced it is even possible for any two people to believe exactly the same.

It is not my place to judge another's belief system. It's none of my business what other people believe (or don't). I don't care what other people believe (or don't) as long as those beliefs aren't forced on me or made into legislation.

I often feel as though you are trying to convince those of us believers who are willing to discuss this topic into seeing the error of our ways by constantly showing us the "ugly" sides of religion - particularly Christianity. If you didn't post such unrelentingly negative perspectives in these topics, perhaps I wouldn't feel that way. It's insulting. I am not stupid. I am well aware of the fact that people who are directly connected to the church or identify as people of God do awful things. I can have faith despite that. I'm sorry if that offends your good sense in some way. Deal with it. You cannot control what others believe. Why would you want to? In fact, I daresay you are every bit as intolerant as the shit you frequently admonish on these boards.

[hidesome]

The more I think about this, the more fucked up I think your perceptions of faith must be. Seriously, my beliefs are nothing more than that - they are my beliefs. The very concept of beliefs is personal. They aren't going to get up and bitch slap the next guy whose ideals are different. If you are prepared to tell people (or even just think) that their beliefs are sick rather than simply disagreeing with them, well then damn, you must go around finding offense in every minute of your day outside of the home!

I disagree that homosexuals will go to hell for being attracted to members of their own gender or acting on that attraction in a sexual way. However, I don't think people who do believe homosexuals are going to hell are sick. They simply believe differently than I do. In fact, I'm not convinced it is even possible for any two people to believe exactly the same.

It is not my place to judge another's belief system. It's none of my business what other people believe (or don't). I don't care what other people believe (or don't) as long as those beliefs aren't forced on me or made into legislation.

I often feel as though you are trying to convince those of us believers who are willing to discuss this topic into seeing the error of our ways by constantly showing us the "ugly" sides of religion - particularly Christianity. If you didn't post such unrelentingly negative perspectives in these topics, perhaps I wouldn't feel that way. It's insulting. I am not stupid. I am well aware of the fact that people who are directly connected to the church or identify as people of God do awful things. I can have faith despite that. I'm sorry if that offends your good sense in some way. Deal with it. You cannot control what others believe. Why would you want to? In fact, I daresay you are every bit as intolerant as the shit you frequently admonish on these boards.


I must say that I agree with Tata's post. Judy, it is clear, for whatever reason, that religion, Christianity in particular, is a hot button for you. Normally, your posts are well-considered and fair-minded. On religious topics...well, not so much. Take that for what it is.

[JudyJudyJudy]

The more I think about this, the more fucked up I think your perceptions of faith must be. Seriously, my beliefs are nothing more than that - they are my beliefs. The very concept of beliefs is personal. They aren't going to get up and bitch slap the next guy whose ideals are different.
Perhaps you feel that your beliefs are personal, but when you specifically answer on a thread about "God's plan," you're putting them out there.


If you are prepared to tell people (or even just think) that their beliefs are sick rather than simply disagreeing with them, well then damn, you must go around finding offense in every minute of your day outside of the home!
I'm not sure what the two have to do with each other. Yes, I do find some beliefs sick; those that say that someone did something to cause bad things to happen are among those that I consider sick and sad. Since I am surrounded by Christians, fortunately, I don't know but one who believes like this, and he only spews this type of stuff when he is shitfaced.


I disagree that homosexuals will go to hell for being attracted to members of their own gender or acting on that attraction in a sexual way. However, I don't think people who do believe homosexuals are going to hell are sick. They simply believe differently than I do.
Please read carefully. I didn't say that those who believe that are sick. I said that those who teach that are sick.


I often feel as though you are trying to convince those of us believers who are willing to discuss this topic into seeing the error of our ways by constantly showing us the "ugly" sides of religion -
No, you're the one who showed the "ugly" side of religion here by stating your beliefs.


particularly Christianity.
Oddly enough, I suspect many (most?) Christians wouldn't even think your beliefs are Christian. I'd be the one arguing in a thread that if you believe in Christ as your savior, then you're Christian. "lol9"


If you didn't post such unrelentingly negative perspectives in these topics, perhaps I wouldn't feel that way. It's insulting. I am not stupid. I am well aware of the fact that people who are directly connected to the church or identify as people of God do awful things. I can have faith despite that. I'm sorry if that offends your good sense in some way. Deal with it.
I've dealt with it my entire life. :p


You cannot control what others believe.
Nor have I tried.


Why would you want to? In fact, I daresay you are every bit as intolerant as the shit you frequently admonish on these boards.
Yes, I'll tell you that I'm intolerant of bullshit that hurts others.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Hidesome, think what you wish. When others are so quick to put down LDS, I'm one of the first to post in their defense. I've done the same for JWs, Catholics, and Christians in general. Certain comments, though, like a person's past causing the pain he or his kids are now suffering, piss me the hell off.

[Tweet]

But that's just it..she put what she believes on a thread that was talking about it. To me that is different than just going around and telling everyone that they might be paying karmic debt.

[hidesome]

Hidesome, think what you wish. When others are so quick to put down LDS, I'm one of the first to post in their defense. I've done the same for JWs, Catholics, and Christians in general. Certain comments, though, like a person's past causing the pain he or his kids are now suffering, piss me the hell off.

Oddly enough, similar beliefs are part of LDS theology. Normally, I am not one to intervene, but I think you are cutting this too fine.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Oddly enough, similar beliefs are part of LDS theology. Normally, I am not one to intervene, but I think you are cutting this too fine.
So you believe in this "karmic debt"? You believe that a person who is raped is paying for the "gain and growth of others"?

[RaisingThemLeft]

Oddly enough, similar beliefs are part of LDS theology. Normally, I am not one to intervene, but I think you are cutting this too fine.
I was thinking the same thing. Tata's beliefs are not out of line with a lot of major religion's beliefs. I've really tried to stop arguing religion here. We will never agree.

[hidesome]

So you believe in this "karmic debt"? You believe that a person who is raped is paying for the "gain and growth of others"?

Crudely speaking, yes to the former and no to the latter. I believe we are presented with many challenging situations for a variety of reasons. Some of those situations/reasons involve personal growth. I do not think that belief makes me "sick". It may not be a belief you share. That is fine with me.

There are some topics, like politics, where a good flame fest is almost a prerequisite. There are others, (personal) religious beliefs among them, where the knives and pitchforks are best left in the barn.

[JudyJudyJudy]

hidesome, do you believe in past lives and that you suffer in your life now because of things you did wrong then?

[bocarioja]

There are some topics, like politics, where a good flame fest is almost a prerequisite. There are others, (personal) religious beliefs among them, where the knives and pitchforks are best left in the barn.

Now now, Jesus himself was one of those with the hypothetical knives and or pitchfork. Growth never happens without questioning one's fundamental beliefs.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Well, I missed the knives and pitchforks. Perhaps I'll use them next time. :p

[gobucks1013]

I have to say that I tend to agree with those who are defending Tata here. This thread is an appropriate venue for her to share *her* beliefs. She's not pushing them on anyone and she stated that she would never tell someone who is suffering that it's b/c of something they did in a past life. She simply stating that those are her beleifs as they relate to the congruency of religion and life's tragedies.

Calling someone's faith and personal beliefs sick is...well...sick in it's own way. Especially when those beliefs are not discriminatory or intolerance-laced in any way.

[hidesome]

hidesome, do you believe in past lives and that you suffer in your life now because of things you did wrong then?

*I* believe that we are accountable for our actions. I also believe that we have eternal souls which, prior to our earthly birth, performed actions that were (are if you want) accountable. It is not entirely clear to me that what you call suffering is equivalent to what I call accountability. However, I can imagine some seeing it that way. Having said that, I cannot imagine watching an automobile accident and saying, "oh well, they probably deserved it". I do believe that much of what happens is, quite simply, beyond our earthly ability to comprehend. I do have faith that God has his reasons and I trust, implicitly, that they are just and fair. Beyond that, I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

LMFAO. I have defended Christians many, many times on this board.
Yes. And I've seen her do this for years.

[JudyJudyJudy]

However, I can imagine some seeing it that way. Having said that, I cannot imagine watching an automobile accident and saying, "oh well, they probably deserved it".
Your post seems nicer, but it does come across that way in others' posts, especially in light of the questions asked in the OP. Having said that, if it's all "meant to be," then why is anything that happens on this earth "sad"? Is it only sad because "we" can't comprehend it?

[EvilAmy]

I think that Karmic Debt gets confused with reaping what one sows or life lessons.

And I know a couple of people that believe like tata, I would call it eclectic Christianity.

And having spent good portions of my life surrounded by both denominations of Christians (Bible belt in SC/LDS in UT) there are plenty of similarities. Which has tendency in influence my opinion at times and not always in the positive, I just keep in mind that it is usually the persons use of that faith that irritates me. I know many wonderful loving people of various denomintations. I also some quite a few stinkers in both bunches. The rule tends to apply to everyone in all walks of life.


Then again I tend to be drawn towards Hinduism so I guess I also land in the sick catagory in the eyes of others. And I didn't even have to say anything before or now...

[hidesome]

Your post seems nicer, but it does come across that way in others' posts, especially in light of the questions asked in the OP. Having said that, if it's all "meant to be," then why is anything that happens on this earth "sad"? Is it only sad because "we" can't comprehend it?

I am definitely not in the preordained, "meant to be" camp. The world is what we make it, good, bad, or indifferent. Ironically, I think that "sad" is something we can fully comprehend. "Why" is something we have more trouble with.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Then again I tend to be drawn towards Hinduism so I guess I also land in the sick catagory in the eyes of others. And I didn't even have to say anything before or now...
Are you drawn to the caste system part of some Hindu beliefs that keeps people poor and pitiful?

[hidesome]

I think that Karmic Debt gets confused with reaping what one sows or life lessons.

And I know a couple of people that believe like tata, I would call it eclectic Christianity.

And having spent good portions of my life surrounded by both denominations of Christians (Bible belt in SC/LDS in UT) there are plenty of similarities. Which has tendency in influence my opinion at times and not always in the positive, I just keep in mind that it is usually the persons use of that faith that irritates me. I know many wonderful loving people of various denomintations. I also some quite a few stinkers in both bunches. The rule tends to apply to everyone in all walks of life.


Then again I tend to be drawn towards Hinduism so I guess I also land in the sick catagory in the eyes of others. And I didn't even have to say anything before or now...

My experience parallels your own. Excellent use of the word "stinkers", BTW.

[Tweet]

It just seems completely inappropriate to be calling anyone's beliefs sick in a thread that is specifically talking about faith. I'd also feel it would be extremely rude for a believer to call an atheist sick because they didn't believe.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

I'm another who has never been able to reconcile the fact that G-d is to be praised for miracles and trusted to be in control, while being told (by the same people) that humans have free will and responsible for the ills in the world (or Satan is, which makes Satan look more powerful that G-d a lot of the time).

[Tweet]

I'm another who has never been able to reconcile the fact that G-d is to be praised for miracles and trusted to be in control, while being told (by the same people) that humans have free will and responsible for the ills in the world (or Satan is, which makes Satan look more powerful that G-d a lot of the time).


Me, either. And there have been many times when I really hoped someone would be able to give me an answer that would make me feel at ease.

[Babyhellfire]

It just seems completely inappropriate to be calling anyone's beliefs sick in a thread that is specifically talking about faith. I'd also feel it would be extremely rude for a believer to call an atheist sick because they didn't believe.
word

[JudyJudyJudy]

Tweet, first, the purpose of this thread wasn't to simply "talk about faith." This wasn't a support thread. If it had been, I probably would not have opened it (or at least would not have posted on it).

Second, I don't think that all religious beliefs have to be respected just because they are called "religious" beliefs. I don't respect the beliefs that essentially say that a person deserves what he/she gets because of his/her past ; I don't respect the beliefs that say that men are superior to women; I don't respect the beliefs that say that a person is meant to be poor and pitiful and can't rise above that if that's the situation into which he was born; I don't respect the beliefs that say all infidels should be killed; I don't respect the beliefs of people like Fred Phelps; I don't respect the beliefs of those who think their souls depend on legislating their beliefs; and the list goes on and on. If any of that or if being atheist makes me "sick," then so be it. I've been called worse.

[EvilAmy]

Are you drawn to the caste system part of some Hindu beliefs that keeps people poor and pitiful?

Well let's see it's already been determined that I'm (and others) are "sick" and been "been duped" from what I've read here. So, does it really matter what else I beleive? I would say by this point, no it doesn't matter what my thoughts are at this point. Would it make me only "kind of sick" or "slightly fooled?"

BRB, I have to run and fetch son from a friends house and ship Smiley off to work.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Well let's see it's already been determined that I'm (and others) are "sick" and been "been duped" from what I've read here. So, does it really matter what else I beleive? I would say by this point, no it doesn't matter what my thoughts are at this point. Would it make me only "kind of sick" or "slightly fooled?"
I don't guess I understand. I'm the one who mentioned that particular Hindu belief and nothing else in regards to Hinduism. The caste system is one of the few things about Hinduism that I really, really dislike. I don't like anything that uses religion to keep people down.

[TexasMama]

Unexpected but NOT an accident, Conceived in the mind of God, Image-bearer created for eternal destiny, Fashioned by His hand- and perfectly planned!

Above is a pro-life statement. Do pro-life people really believe that God plans everything, the rape victim that gets pregnant, the child who gets sexually abused and pregnant? Really? Can someone shed some light on this? Im not going into pro-choice or pro-life I really just want to know if what i have asked is true?

As a Christian I believe God has a plan for us, but I also believe that we have free will. So we can chose to do evil and distance ourselves from God. If evil actions did not have negative consequences, they wouldn't be so evil, would they?

If we were protected from all the consequences of our actions, or constrained to act only in a good manner, then we would merely be puppets on a string. I think God knows what is happening/has happened/will happen , but he isn't pulling every little string. (what is time to God anyway? probably not the same linear concept that we have)

If we never had the opportunity or motivation to commit evil acts, we would never have the chance to strive to become good or moral. The trials of this life can be the fires in which our souls are tempered.

I believe bad things can happen to good people for no good reason. The thought of heaven comforts me, since the world we live in is far from perfect. But I digress.

I think the meaning of the quote you posted is that the divine act of creation is not a mistake, regardless of the circumstances surrounding it.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I think the meaning of the quote you posted is that the divine act of creation is not a mistake, regardless of the circumstances surrounding it.
So every embryo that comes about was meant to be? Does that mean that in the case of rape, the rape was meant to be? I think that's similar to what the OP is asking.

[JudyJudyJudy]

One more thing before I go take a shower: I hope the board hasn't had another crash by the time the next Scientology thread comes around. If I recall correctly, I was one of only two or three people who defended Scientologists on the last one. Everyone else called them freaks and worse.

[Aeonkat]

One more thing before I go take a shower: I hope the board hasn't had another crash by the time the next Scientology thread comes around. If I recall correctly, I was one of only two or three people who defended Scientologists on the last one. Everyone else called them freaks and worse.


BTDT. Along with LDS and JWs. Pisses me off its generally accepted to diss these faiths but don't you dare say Christianity is a crock of shit.

[JudyJudyJudy]

BTDT. Along with LDS and JWs. Pisses me off its generally accepted to diss these faiths but don't you dare say Christianity is a crock of shit.
Yep, many will even deny that LDS and JWs are Christians. I particularly find it hilarious that some do the same about Catholics. "lol9"

[Babyhellfire]

I don't think it is "generally accepted" to diss those faiths ,or any around here,and never by me.
...and actually, you were "dissing" Tata's some what "unchristian" beliefs on karma as "sick",

I agree with gobucks that- that is, well sick in its own way.

You would be pretty offended if people called your personal beliefs,or lack of " sick" , would you not?

Ugh,
it doesn't matter.Everyone just believes what they do and theres no point in debating it.
these threads always play out the same, I don't know why i even bothered replying.

[EvilAmy]

Well technically what y'all are saying is that LDS/JW/Catholics are a crock of shit as well (since it's what y'alls opinion of Christianity is, or at least what has been expressed on this thread). So either they are Christian and they just happen to be exempt or they are included in the whole "sick/dupped", or they are not.

[Sunnie]

I'm pro-life (but also very pro-choice) and I do believe that God knows all and knows what will happen. Whether that's planned by Him or that He knows what will happen, IDK.

I don't think that anything that happens is a surprise to God.

You're pro choice then hon. Pro-choice does not mean you'd have an abortion. Just that you feel the choice should be there.

[Sunnie]

Where is the "free will" for the person who gets raped? Why should a teenager who is raped by her own father used for the "gain and growth" of others? IMO, that's a pretty sick way of thinking.


I agree. That's disgusting.

[EvilAmy]

And FTR, I beleive that they are all Christian, and while I may not agree with doctorine I do not consider them sick or duped. Choosing these paths is not an easy one, questioning your faith is difficult as well, I can imagine that not choosing any of these paths aren't easy as well. However it's easy to take pot shots and another's belief (or lack of), by using a broad brush colored by negative experiences. Faith is a deeply personal thing, Hinduism is what is right for me. LDS happens to be what is right for DH and DD(though he is not practicing), for DS it's Baptist (he's not one but to him over being agnostic he would choose that).

[JudyJudyJudy]

Well technically what y'all are saying is that LDS/JW/Catholics are a crock of shit as well (since it's what y'alls opinion of Christianity is, or at least what has been expressed on this thread). So either they are Christian and they just happen to be exempt or they are included in the whole "sick/dupped", or they are not.
Who is this y'all of whom you speak? I've seen one person (note: singular) say that on this board. I have never once stated that Christianity is a crock of shit. I'll freely own my words, but do not assign someone else's words to me. I've also never used the word "duped." As for "sick," I've certainly not said that of all Christian beliefs, so stretch as you wish if that makes you feel better.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

One more thing before I go take a shower: I hope the board hasn't had another crash by the time the next Scientology thread comes around. If I recall correctly, I was one of only two or three people who defended Scientologists on the last one. Everyone else called them freaks and worse.

Ironically, most of those doing the loudest name-calling were very vocal Christians.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Who is this y'all of whom you speak? I've seen one person (note: singular) say that on this board. I have never once stated that Christianity is a crock of shit. I'll freely own my words, but do not assign someone else's words to me. I've also never used the word "duped." As for "sick," I've certainly not said that of all Christian beliefs, so stretch as you wish if that makes you feel better.

As I've been told on this board, even if I don't use the words it's "clear" how I feel. :rolleyes:

[TuetonicWillow]

So, it's acceptable to call Scientology sick but it isn't acceptable for Judy to say that karmic debt visited upon children for the sins of the parents in past lives is sick?

Roast me along with Judy, then. I think its downright nutty. And I don't buy into the whole "It's her religion so it is sacred and above reproach" school of thinking. Anyone can say anything and call it their religion. I could come here and claim to truly, deeply and honestly believe the rabbits living under my deck are sacred, celestial beings and it's my religion, my faith, that they are my key to a good afterlife.

I'd be insane. But nobody would call me on it because they'd be busy trying to pretend they respected my religious beliefs.

Tata is free to believe that her past lives are what dictates how her life goes here. She's free to believe that her past sins are why her children might suffer some day- that they are sacrificing this life for her sake.

I'm free to call that whacky.

[TuetonicWillow]

And just so I know, what religions make which list?

Scientology is open to mockery.
Christianity is not.
Wicca- where does that fall?

What about the rest?

[QuiltyConscience]

Ironically, most of those doing the loudest name-calling were very vocal Christians.

Yet I don't see that happening on this thread. I'm sure you have argued with people who have done that, but what does that have to do with the people in this conversation right now?

I have not participated in a Scientology thread, I don't have any issues with Catholics, LDS, JW, or anything else mentioned. I don't remember any of the others on this thread doing such either.

[QuiltyConscience]

And just so I know, what religions make which list?

Scientology is open to mockery.
Christianity is not.
Wicca- where does that fall?

What about the rest?

I think there is a clear difference between mockery and disagreement. I expect disagreement. Disagreement can lead to discussion, and understanding( not necessarily agreement, just understanding). Mockery doesn't seem to be useful for much other than just insulting.

[tata]

Perhaps you feel that your beliefs are personal, but when you specifically answer on a thread about "God's plan," you're putting them out there.

Hard not to put them out there when it's the topic at hand.

Please read carefully. I didn't say that those who believe that are sick. I said that those who teach that are sick.Fine. But somehow, you have twisted what I have clearly stated to be my own personal beliefs into something that I go around preaching to others, despite the fact that I have further added that it is not my desire to proselytize.

No, you're the one who showed the "ugly" side of religion here by stating your beliefs.Oh fuck off. My beliefs are not ugly.

Oddly enough, I suspect many (most?) Christians wouldn't even think your beliefs are Christian. I'd be the one arguing in a thread that if you believe in Christ as your savior, then you're Christian. "lol9"Yeah, BTDT.

Yes, I'll tell you that I'm intolerant of bullshit that hurts others.Please explain how my faith hurts others. I don't preach, I don't teach. Does my faith take on a life of it's own and ninja kick dissenters when I'm not looking or something?

I am definitely not in the preordained, "meant to be" camp. The world is what we make it, good, bad, or indifferent.
Agreed.

Are you drawn to the caste system part of some Hindu beliefs that keeps people poor and pitiful?
Not even a little bit.

It just seems completely inappropriate to be calling anyone's beliefs sick in a thread that is specifically talking about faith. I'd also feel it would be extremely rude for a believer to call an atheist sick because they didn't believe.
And intolerant. Really ruffles my feathers.

Tweet, first, the purpose of this thread wasn't to simply "talk about faith."
Right, like threads are not allowed to evolve. Or like they do so all the time. http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c298/tatasmagik/Smiley/rolleyes.gif

Second, I don't think that all religious beliefs have to be respected just because they are called "religious" beliefs. Well, I think the larger community here disagrees with you. If you are going to disrespect with someone's beliefs (or right to them), than perhaps it's best you keep it to yourself.


One more thing before I go take a shower: I hope the board hasn't had another crash by the time the next Scientology thread comes around. If I recall correctly, I was one of only two or three people who defended Scientologists on the last one. Everyone else called them freaks and worse.

BTDT. Along with LDS and JWs. Pisses me off its generally accepted to diss these faiths but don't you dare say Christianity is a crock of shit.

Like Cat says:
Yet I don't see that happening on this thread. I'm sure you have argued with people who have done that, but what does that have to do with the people in this conversation right now?

I have not participated in a Scientology thread, I don't have any issues with Catholics, LDS, JW, or anything else mentioned. I don't remember any of the others on this thread doing such either.
It isn't happening here. I don't see believers - Christian or otherwise - mocking or shunning Scientologists, Catholics, LDS, JW, etx. In fact, what I see is a group of vocal self-identifying atheists calling my particular beliefs "sick."

Who is this y'all of whom you speak? I've seen one person (note: singular) say that on this board. I have never once stated that Christianity is a crock of shit. I'll freely own my words, but do not assign someone else's words to me. I've also never used the word "duped." As for "sick," I've certainly not said that of all Christian beliefs, so stretch as you wish if that makes you feel better.

Well, these posts come to mind:

Because it's akin to wearing blinders when one makes excuses for everything.

Not to mention a dash mind-boggling why one would revere a being who would impart these atrocities on people.

Not to mention chastise those who feel that way by saying our minds are too 'small' to try to understand this grand plan he has or disagree with it.


Well, that's why we're wondering why Tata would try to justify it under the facade of "karma".

And regarding Aeon's post just above: No one is chastising atheists for trying to understand. Who is doing that?

[tata]

I think there is a clear difference between mockery and disagreement. I expect disagreement. Disagreement can lead to discussion, and understanding( not necessarily agreement, just understanding). Mockery doesn't seem to be useful for much other than just insulting.
Yeah, and I think there is a difference between disagreement and disrespect.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Oh fuck off.
I'd rather not, but thanks for the offer.


Right, like threads are not allowed to evolve.
Tweet said that this was what the thread was about, not what it had evolved into. That comment of hers was to what mine was referring.


Well, I think the larger community here disagrees with you.
I've never pretended to post based on what others think. I post my own opinions.

[Sunnie]

It isn't happening here. I don't see believers - Christian or otherwise - mocking or shunning Scientologists, Catholics, LDS, JW, etx.

i've seen it here. not this thread, but on this board

[QuiltyConscience]

Sunnie, I've seen a lot of things on this board. I don't hold every "X" responsible for what one "x" has said.

[Bohemian]

Please explain how my faith hurts others. I don't preach, I don't teach. Does my faith take on a life of it's own and ninja kick dissenters when I'm not looking or something?



"lol9" Best comment in this thread! Totally funny image from that!

FWIW, I've never seen you push any of your beliefs on this board and you don't see like the type of person that would do so in real life either. I don't agree with the karmic debt and astrology stuff because I don't believe in either but I respect your right to believe in what you choose. That would go for any belief or pov concerning non belief, as long as it's not harming anyone and pov are stated respectfully. (which you aren't and you did)

And FTR, I beleive that they are all Christian, and while I may not agree with doctorine I do not consider them sick or duped. Choosing these paths is not an easy one, questioning your faith is difficult as well, I can imagine that not choosing any of these paths aren't easy as well. However it's easy to take pot shots and another's belief (or lack of), by using a broad brush colored by negative experiences. Faith is a deeply personal thing.

ITA.

[tata]

Please explain how my faith hurts others. I don't preach, I don't teach. Does my faith take on a life of it's own and ninja kick dissenters when I'm not looking or something?

You missed one, Judy.

[JudyJudyJudy]

You missed one, Judy.
No, I didn't miss it. I've already explained in an earlier post how your "karmic debt" thing could be hurtful to others, and the question itself seemed to be a rhetorical question, so I didn't figure there was any need in addressing it.

[Bohemian]

Oh and I find it ironic that in this thread it's okay to tell someone they are "whacky" and "sick" and it's okay because it's how they feel and they don't have to respect someone's pov if they feel that way about that pov....

Yet on the anti homeschool thread, JD makes a comment that some people are easily offended and some not (regarding the Subway contest) and it's dismissive. :gig: (which is pretty matter of fact and not dismissive or directed to anyone in particular) If I go by the logic of this thread, I'm free to say that I think getting upset with Subway in any way,shape, or form because they aren't allowing homeschoolers to enter a contest is a dumbass reason to be upset and that a boycott for this purpose is stupid and an over emotional reaction to offense where none exists. That is how I feel, I don't really have to respect someone else's pov if I don't agree with it, right? ;)

[Ilovemonkeys]

I believe a lot of the same things about Karma and past lives as Tata does. I'm not about to tell anyone why something bad happened to them though.

I don't know why bad things happen. I do know that most all of the bad things that have happened to me have served to make me a better person in the end.

[JudyJudyJudy]

If I go by the logic of this thread, I'm free to say that I think getting upset with Subway in any way,shape, or form because they aren't allowing homeschoolers to enter a contest is a dumbass reason to be upset and that a boycott for this purpose is stupid and an over emotional reaction to offense where none exists. That is how I feel, I don't really have to respect someone else's pov if I don't agree with it, right? ;)
Well, you supposedly clarified on the other thread, but I guess you did mean your original comments. To answer your question, obviously not since you kept making similar remarks in the thread. Of course, it's your right to think that, though, so no biggie. Just make up your mind which it is.

[Aeonkat]

Oh and I find it ironic that in this thread it's okay to tell someone they are "whacky" and "sick" and it's okay because it's how they feel and they don't have to respect someone's pov if they feel that way about that pov....

Yet on the anti homeschool thread, JD makes a comment that some people are easily offended and some not (regarding the Subway contest) and it's dismissive. :gig: (which is pretty matter of fact and not dismissive or directed to anyone in particular) If I go by the logic of this thread, I'm free to say that I think getting upset with Subway in any way,shape, or form because they aren't allowing homeschoolers to enter a contest is a dumbass reason to be upset and that a boycott for this purpose is stupid and an over emotional reaction to offense where none exists. That is how I feel, I don't really have to respect someone else's pov if I don't agree with it, right? ;)

How about saying it in the thread where it belongs? Seems silly to take whatever logic you gathered here to state a point from another thread. Grow some.

[JudyJudyJudy]

How about saying it in the thread where it belongs? Seems silly to take whatever logic you gathered here to state a point from another thread. Grow some.
She originally said it in the other thread and then backpedaled out of it and claimed that she didn't make herself clear, so I was surprised to see her say it again here.

[Bohemian]

Well, you supposedly clarified on the other thread, but I guess you did mean your original comments. To answer your question, obviously not since you kept making similar remarks in the thread. Of course, it's your right to think that, though, so no biggie. Just make up your mind which it is.


Yeah, I clarified that you have a right to feel whatever way you want or do what you want. I can still think that and at the same time think it's dumb way to feel. :shrug: I'll own that. I thought you were in tizzy because you thought I was trying to tell you that you weren't justified in how you felt. Which I clarified that I thought you were wrong but you can feel any old way you want. Nice try though! :gig:

[Bohemian]

I'm not back peddling anything Judy. You are justified in how you feel, no one else can tell you otherwise.

Aeon, I've participated heavily in the other thread and I'll keep my vagina, thanks. I'm sort of partial to it. ;)

I could have put the comment in the other thread just as easily but I'm sure someone would have said is should be taken over to this thread. I didn't really think it mattered since it involved what was going on in both threads.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Yeah, I clarified that you have a right to feel whatever way you want or do what you want. I can still think that and at the same time think it's dumb way to feel. :shrug:
Of course, you can. No one can control your thoughts, nor do we want to do so.

I thought you were in tizzy
Your definition of "tizzy" and my definition of "tizzy" must not be even close. I was not "in a tizzy"; I was simply participating in a debate (in another thread where these posts belong).

because you thought I was trying to tell you that you weren't justified in how you felt.
Correction: You weren't "trying to tell me"; you did tell me that my feelings weren't justified.


Which I clarified that I thought you were wrong but you can feel any old way you want. Nice try though! :gig:
Nice try at what? Pointing out your inconsistencies since you claimed that you didn't make yourself clear in the other thread and are now changing your posts yet again?

[Aeonkat]

I believe a lot of the same things about Karma and past lives as Tata does. I'm not about to tell anyone why something bad happened to them though.

I don't know why bad things happen. I do know that most all of the bad things that have happened to me have served to make me a better person in the end.


Explain to me how a child being raped would ever make them a better person? and is there any reason (this is to tata too) for a child to be abused in god's plan?

[Aeonkat]

I'm not back peddling anything Judy. You are justified in how you feel, no one else can tell you otherwise.

Aeon, I've participated heavily in the other thread and I'll keep my vagina, thanks. I'm sort of partial to it. ;)

I could have put the comment in the other thread just as easily but I'm sure someone would have said is should be taken over to this thread. I didn't really think it mattered since it involved what was going on in both threads.


What does keeping your vagina have to do with anything? Grow some is a figure of speech. I left it open instead of saying balls because we are women.

[tata]

Aeon, I've already said that I think "God's plan" is for people to exercise Free Will. Why not answer my question? Who here is calling you small-minded for trying to understand?

[JudyJudyJudy]

Aeon, I've already said that I think "God's plan" is for people to exercise Free Will.
So where does this "karmic debt" come in if it's really about "free will"? :confused:

[Bohemian]

Correction: You weren't "trying to tell me"; you did tell me that my feelings weren't justified.

And THAT was what I clarified. Over and over and over again. I think you are justified in any way you want to feel. Lather.Rinse.Repeat. As I said in this thread and the other thread, just because you're justified doesn't mean I have to agree with you or think it's not a dumb reason to be upset. ONE CAN DO BOTH.


Nice try at what? Pointing out your inconsistencies since you claimed that you didn't make yourself clear in the other thread and are now changing your posts yet again?

Nice try at trying to find inconsistencies that don't exist. Show in this thread where I said you weren't justified in your feelings. I only said that I thought such feelings were stupid. There is a difference.

[Aeonkat]

Aeon, I've already said that I think "God's plan" is for people to exercise Free Will. Why not answer my question? Who here is calling you small-minded for trying to understand?


You make no sense.

I never said anyone here called me small minded. I said religious people frequently claim that we cannot understand god's reasoning because we have finite minds.

I tire of this type of debate where people take words in posts and turn them into something they are not. You will see what a different context I used 'duped' and 'sick' and I was not referring to anyone in particular. I think your beliefs are sick for thinking the rape or abuse of a child somehow fulfills a karmic debt, experience for someone, etc. as you claimed it did.

Ugh....I'm gonna go lay down...this isn't even worth my energy to defend words taken out of context.

[Aeonkat]

So where does this "karmic debt" come in if it's really about "free will"? :confused:


Exactly. Here folks, we have tata showing us point on point what backpedaling is!

[Bohemian]

What does keeping your vagina have to do with anything? Grow some is a figure of speech. I left it open instead of saying balls because we are women.


I was just being silly. Dude, I hear you on laying down. This places has some negative vibes today and I'm in too good a mood to hang.

(Not calling you a dude, just a figure of speech! :p)

Sorry I thought you called Tata "sick" personally. I see what it was. I still don't agree that her particular belief is sick but what you described about rape is.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

As I said in this thread and the other thread, just because you're justified doesn't mean I have to agree with you or think it's not a dumb reason to be upset. ONE CAN DO BOTH.

Just like Judy doesn't try to limit your right to religious expression yet can think that your beliefs are fucked up?

[JudyJudyJudy]

And THAT was what I clarified. Over and over and over again. I think you are justified in any way you want to feel. Lather.Rinse.Repeat. As I said in this thread and the other thread, just because you're justified doesn't mean I have to agree with you or think it's not a dumb reason to be upset. ONE CAN DO BOTH.



Nice try at trying to find inconsistencies that don't exist. Show in this thread where I said you weren't justified in your feelings. I only said that I thought such feelings were stupid. There is a difference.
It wasn't in this thread. It was in the other thread from which you chose to drag this:

This is where I'm at and I'm a homeschooler. It would be nice if the included everyone but it doesn't bother me that they are wishing to donate to a public school. It's their donation, their choice. While whomever is entitled to be annoyed or worked up over the exclusion it's not justified imo because Subway is no way obligated to include all.

[Bohemian]

Just like Judy doesn't try to limit your right to religious expression yet can think that your beliefs are fucked up?


Exactly! :) Finally someone gets it! Hallelujah! The difference though is that I went ahead stated my very rude opinion to make an example of how depending on the topic it's acceptable/non acceptable. On the norm, I do try to be careful not to offend, especially about emotional hot button topics like religion and abortion.

[steelady]

So where does this "karmic debt" come in if it's really about "free will"? :confused:


I'm not Tata, so she can correct me, but the way I interpreted her remarks to mean that the free will exercised in past lives can set up the "karmic debt" and our free will now (what we do, react to the world) can either add to it or negate it.

Seems to me that you and others are trying to imply an intent that may not be there. Saying someone is suffering in this life to learn something, or to some how make up for something in a past one is not the same thing as saying someone deserves it. It isn't that cut and dried (what I recall of Hinduism, which, I admit, was learned a long time ago). It's more about the circumstances in this life, being in the position to be exposed to bad people who may do bad things, rather than the actual act.

So someone who lacked empathy or was cruel in one life may be placed in a situation where he/she has to deal with others who lack empathy and are cruel. Those others still have "free will" to actually be cruel (or not). I sort of see it more as natural consequences (on a cosmic scale). The idea (now I'm totally projecting, Tata hasn't said this on this thread, nor am I sure if she has said it on other threads) is that one lives with or deals with those bad things someone may have done in a previous life. They (the person needing to learn or pay back debt) have the free will to "learn" from their past mistakes, and thus breaking the cosmic cycle and climbing one step closer to whatever (enlightenment, I would presume).

Which is different, IMO, than saying "you raped a child in your past life and now you will be raped as a child to pay for it", which is what I think people are trying to say Tata means.

Then again, the idea of reincarnation, IMO, is based on the idea that no soul is innocent (or at least most souls are not innocent). While in Western culture, all souls are innocent, at birth, which is why this type of thinking would be difficult to understand.

Now, I don't agree with that anymore than I agree with "it's God's plan".

[Bohemian]

It wasn't in this thread. It was in the other thread from which you chose to drag this


I know it wasn't in this thread. That was why I called you on your inconsistencies bullcrap. You in THIS thread said:


She originally said it in the other thread and then backpedaled out of it and claimed that she didn't make herself clear, so I was surprised to see her say it again here.

Make up your mind, did I say what I said in the other thread again or didn't I? Talk about inconsistencies. ;)

I never claimed I didn't say my original quote. I did and clarified and I haven't said any different since in that thread or this thread.

[Prisca]

I'm really late here, as I've been off the board for a while. But something like this has been on my mind recently, so I'm just jumping in here.

The leader of my co-op just had a baby, and the e-mail that just went out was worded something like this "God has blessed her with her dream. She always wanted a big family and now she's had 3 babies in one year!" It goes on to attribute all this to God answering her prayers. And honestly, it just gets to me.

Do people really think God hand picks who gets to have 4 babies and who won't get any? One person's prayers and wishes are more worthy than another because .... If God blessed her, then what is he thinking when he lets someone elses only child die?

I think the whole free will idea is just a cop out. We only want Free will because we have it. If God is all powerful, he could choose not to give us free will, and make us not want it either. We could be perfectly happy. But no, it's more important for us to suffer.

[Tweet]

I'm not Tata, so she can correct me, but the way I interpreted her remarks to mean that the free will exercised in past lives can set up the "karmic debt" and our free will now (what we do, react to the world) can either add to it or negate it.

Seems to me that you and others are trying to imply an intent that may not be there. Saying someone is suffering in this life to learn something, or to some how make up for something in a past one is not the same thing as saying someone deserves it. It isn't that cut and dried (what I recall of Hinduism, which, I admit, was learned a long time ago). It's more about the circumstances in this life, being in the position to be exposed to bad people who may do bad things, rather than the actual act.

So someone who lacked empathy or was cruel in one life may be placed in a situation where he/she has to deal with others who lack empathy and are cruel. Those others still have "free will" to actually be cruel (or not). I sort of see it more as natural consequences (on a cosmic scale). The idea (now I'm totally projecting, Tata hasn't said this on this thread, nor am I sure if she has said it on other threads) is that one lives with or deals with those bad things someone may have done in a previous life. They (the person needing to learn or pay back debt) have the free will to "learn" from their past mistakes, and thus breaking the cosmic cycle and climbing one step closer to whatever (enlightenment, I would presume).

Which is different, IMO, than saying "you raped a child in your past life and now you will be raped as a child to pay for it", which is what I think people are trying to say Tata means.

Then again, the idea of reincarnation, IMO, is based on the idea that no soul is innocent (or at least most souls are not innocent). While in Western culture, all souls are innocent, at birth, which is why this type of thinking would be difficult to understand.

Now, I don't agree with that anymore than I agree with "it's God's plan".

That is how I interpreted it. I don't believe that way, but I don't think it's at all an uncommon belie. I also don't find it anymore disturbing than most typical Christian beliefs.

I really suppose I should get out of the thread because it's starts to bug me when people get really angry about religion. I don't see how any understanding can happen when it starts getting ugly.

[steelady]

It's interesting, but it seems to me, that this is very analogous of the argument of "punitive v. rehabilitation" we have about prisons.

Does God "punish" or "rehabilitate"?

Personally, I don't believe in a god, so my answer would be neither, but that was something that struck me.

[tata]

You make no sense.

I never said anyone here called me small minded. I said religious people frequently claim that we cannot understand god's reasoning because we have finite minds.

I tire of this type of debate where people take words in posts and turn them into something they are not. You will see what a different context I used 'duped' and 'sick' and I was not referring to anyone in particular. I think your beliefs are sick for thinking the rape or abuse of a child somehow fulfills a karmic debt, experience for someone, etc. as you claimed it did.

Ugh....I'm gonna go lay down...this isn't even worth my energy to defend words taken out of context.

Not to mention chastise those who feel that way by saying our minds are too 'small' to try to understand this grand plan he has or disagree with it.
The context of this post does not clarify anything about anyone in particular. Why should I assume religious people doesn't include me?

Explain to me how a child being raped would ever make them a better person? and is there any reason (this is to tata too) for a child to be abused in god's plan?


So where does this "karmic debt" come in if it's really about "free will"? :confused:

What you both fail to realize is that it isn't possible for me to explain it to you. It's FAITH. I have no proof. It's what I BELIEVE. It's not scientific fact. It's spiritual. It is not tangible to the five senses.

Aeon, I gave an example of how I believe it perhaps might work for another in a situation that some might view as tragic - not child rape, but still a very difficult circumstance all the same. I do not know it to be fact (nor did I ever claim such). It is my belief that, like others before me here said earlier using different words, suffering (relative to what it means to each of us) is necessary to strive to be good and moral, to grow and learn.

When I say these things, I say them about MY beliefs and MY life, to help ME make sense of the tragic. It gives ME comfort. It is personal to ME. I do not try to make others believe what I believe. You are free to believe whatever you want. I only share because you asked me to explain to you how that works for me. These are examples of that.

Judy, it doesn't hafta make sense to you. It makes sense to me. I am happy to explain it if you are genuinely interested, but it really seems to me like you are only being provocative. I'm betting that my explanation will only lead to more questions and more frustration for me, because it is not something I can prove to you and from what I've seen of your posts on this topic, you seem to expect believers to prove something to you by your unrelenting questioning, rather than being interested in simple discussion.

[tata]

steel, I think you did a very good job explaining a large part of my beliefs. I fully admit that I struggle when it comes to explaining and defining things. I keep dictionaries tucked here and there around the house for when DD asks what "X" means (not to mention keep m-w.com bookmarked!)

This medium makes it all the more difficult, IMO.

[Tiffers]

I really hate the way threads like these make me feel. I wish I had never opened it.

I don't understand the point of it, actually. The way the OP is worded and the like-minded comments make me wonder if this thread is really about wanting to understand, or just a way to make potshots at others' beliefs.

A question is asked why/if a certain religion feels a certain way about something. Some people who identify as that religion put themselves out there to answer the question, only to be ridiculed, told their beliefs are sick, don't make any sense, have blinders on and use their religious beliefs to make excuses for everything.

I don't think any amount of explaining is going to make a difference. Those who don't agree already have their minds made up, so really, what is the point here?

IMO, you don't have to respect the beliefs but it's superswell if you can have a little respect for a person's right to believe whatever they want to. Personally, I enjoy learning about other peoples' beliefs even if I don't agree with them, but a good religious discussion requires respect and a bit of tact, otherwise nothing good will come of it.

[xobehs]

Such a good point Tiffers.

[Tweet]

Well, to be fair,I think the OP asked only about people that were pro-life. I know that's how it evolved into the religious topics at hand. Anyway, I think it's probably a bad idea to assume all people would feel the same way.

[TuetonicWillow]

Tata, you fail to see something.

When you say something like, "I believe that what happens to people is payback for their past lives and maybe your kids pay for your sins to even out your karma." you might be saying that YOU believe that to help YOU make sense of things but you're saying you believe that to be true across the board. Unless you think you alone have this karmic debt and the rest of us are living according to the rules of a different universe.

So, what you're saying to that woman who's lost two children is, "You must have done something to deserve this. It all evens out."

It's actually a horrific sentiment and even if it makes sense to you, it just rubs salt into the wounds of everyone who hears you say that.

Your beliefs are yours alone and you don't have to justify them to anyone. Fair enough. I'll argue that in your favor. But your belief is profoundly offensive to many people by its very nature.

If you're going to be open about beliving such a thing, be prepared to get some flack. People don't like being told that their misfortunes in life are the result of past crimes they never knew they committed.

Just because it makes sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't ruffle the feathers of everyone else who hears it.

[Tweet]

Question: is Tata's belief in this karmic debt really any more offensive than when people say "It is God''s will" when a tragedy occurs? I remember people telling me that when I lost my mom. I remember thinking I sure wish they'd keep that comment to themselves.

[TuetonicWillow]

Question: is Tata's belief in this karmic debt really any more offensive than when people say "It is God''s will" when a tragedy occurs? I remember people telling me that when I lost my mom. I remember thinking I sure wish they'd keep that comment to themselves.


Not in my opinion. I think it's ALL bunk.

[steelady]

Tata, you fail to see something.

When you say something like, "I believe that what happens to people is payback for their past lives and maybe your kids pay for your sins to even out your karma." you might be saying that YOU believe that to help YOU make sense of things but you're saying you believe that to be true across the board. Unless you think you alone have this karmic debt and the rest of us are living according to the rules of a different universe.

So, what you're saying to that woman who's lost two children is, "You must have done something to deserve this. It all evens out."

It's actually a horrific sentiment and even if it makes sense to you, it just rubs salt into the wounds of everyone who hears you say that.

She didn't say that. She never said anyone "deserved" anything, just that the purpose behind it may be to pay for actions in a past life. Difference between rehabilitation and punishment, in a way.

I don't believe this or follow this type of theology (for want of a better word), but it is too simplistic to think "you did something wrong in a past life and now your children are killed as payment". It could be the soul of the child that dies that has to "learn" something, or the doctor or .....Life is more intertwined and complex to think A is only in reaction to B, etc.


Your beliefs are yours alone and you don't have to justify them to anyone. Fair enough. I'll argue that in your favor. But your belief is profoundly offensive to many people by its very nature.

If you're going to be open about beliving such a thing, be prepared to get some flack. People don't like being told that their misfortunes in life are the result of past crimes they never knew they committed.

Just because it makes sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't ruffle the feathers of everyone else who hears it.

I agree with this completely.

eta-there is no way to phrase something such that someone won't be offended, all any of us can do is be as vigilient as we wish at making sure our words are understood. Tata is no greater an offender than any of the rest of us.

[steelady]

Question: is Tata's belief in this karmic debt really any more offensive than when people say "It is God''s will" when a tragedy occurs? I remember people telling me that when I lost my mom. I remember thinking I sure wish they'd keep that comment to themselves.


Both makes me shudder.

Personally, I feel those statements are arrogant and de-humanize the person experiencing the tragedy.

[Prisca]

I certainly don't mean to ridicule anyone's particular beliefs. I admit I don't agree with many of them. It's something that has come to me over time. After believing and talking about certain beliefs during my life I slowly began to realize that for me, they simply don't cut it. They don't make sense to me. And I admit I've reached the point where I don't really want or need it to anymore. The only time I really think about it is when it's put out there, in and "in my face" kind of way.

I haven't read this thread, mostly just the last few posts now. I'll catch up with what I can. I do love and respect people of nearly all beliefs. And I think I show respect. But in debates I'll say my opinion. I wouldn't bring it to someone's church though. I've found that many religious people find these discussions painful and frustrating though, and I'm sorry for that.

[TuetonicWillow]

Personally, I feel those statements are arrogant and de-humanize the person experiencing the tragedy.


Absolutely.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Judy, it doesn't hafta make sense to you.
Good, because this "hafta" shit makes no sense to me.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Question: is Tata's belief in this karmic debt really any more offensive than when people say "It is God''s will" when a tragedy occurs? I remember people telling me that when I lost my mom. I remember thinking I sure wish they'd keep that comment to themselves.
Of course, it isn't. That topic has been argued here numerous times with many, even many Christians, saying that they didn't like such comments.

[steelady]

Good, because this "hafta" shit makes no sense to me.
It is a contraction of "have" and "to" written in the vernacular, similarly to the way Mark Twain wrote his dialogue.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Both makes me shudder.

Personally, I feel those statements are arrogant and de-humanize the person experiencing the tragedy.
ITA.

[Aqua_Diamond]

And just so I know, what religions make which list?

Scientology is open to mockery.
Christianity is not.
Wicca- where does that fall?

What about the rest?

What list are you referring to? I've been on this board for years and have read my share of threads about religion and I'm pretty sure I've seen Christianity mocked numerous times. In fact, I see Christianity mocked more than any other faith.

[CatSoup]

Oh yay,another "you're religion is crap thread".

[steelady]

Oh yay,another "you're religion is crap thread".


That's a bit dismissive, isn't it?

[CatSoup]

Eh, I read it. And I've read it before too,here,on many occasions.

[Aeonkat]

Then get the fuck out of the thread if you can't contribute. Gosh you are so fucking annoying with these little passive aggressive comments you leave in threads. Explain the point of your comment other than to be annoying.

[CatSoup]

Predictable Aeon. Someone disagrees with you and you reduce yourself to cursing and name calling. Good job being a grown up.

My point is as stated,I've seen all of this before here. Christian bashing is sport to you.

[Tweet]

I certainly don't mean to ridicule anyone's particular beliefs. I admit I don't agree with many of them. It's something that has come to me over time. After believing and talking about certain beliefs during my life I slowly began to realize that for me, they simply don't cut it. They don't make sense to me. And I admit I've reached the point where I don't really want or need it to anymore. The only time I really think about it is when it's put out there, in and "in my face" kind of way.

I haven't read this thread, mostly just the last few posts now. I'll catch up with what I can. I do love and respect people of nearly all beliefs. And I think I show respect. But in debates I'll say my opinion. I wouldn't bring it to someone's church though. I've found that many religious people find these discussions painful and frustrating though, and I'm sorry for that.

Prisca, that is exactly where I'm at in my life. I do find it difficult to discuss even with friends who are believers in real life. I feel like there is no way to state how I feel without insulting someone and I am sure it is likely that my believer friends have no way of stating some of their beliefs without being insulting to me.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

And *I've* seen many different religions get bashed here. By Christians. Several people have.

[CatSoup]

And *I've* seen many different religions get bashed here. By Christians. Several people have.

I haven't,but it's sad to hear about.

[steelady]

And *I've* seen many different religions get bashed here. By Christians. Several people have.


And lack of belief.

[Aqua_Diamond]

Sasha, I never said that I see ONLY Christianity being mocked here. I do see it mocked the most frequently.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I haven't,but it's sad to hear about.
Or perhaps you just don't notice when it isn't about you.

[CatSoup]

Or perhaps you just don't notice when it isn't about you.

? I've never bashed another religion.

[steelady]

Sasha, I never said that I see ONLY Christianity being mocked here. I do see it mocked the most frequently.
Christian beliefs are also the most often put forth for discussion.

I don't think anyone is "targeting" Christians anymore than Christians are "targeting" non-Christians.

We have more Christian posters, so we discuss things in a Christian framework more often.

[steelady]

? I've never bashed another religion.


Meaning you don't notice when someone is bashing another religion, not that you are doing the bashing.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Sasha, I never said that I see ONLY Christianity being mocked here. I do see it mocked the most frequently.
Percentage-wise, based on experiences of others, that would stand to reason. Many people have little experience with or exposure to other religions. Isn't something like 80% of Americans Christian?

[JudyJudyJudy]

? I've never bashed another religion.
Huh? I never said you did.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Meaning you don't notice when someone is bashing another religion, not that you are doing the bashing.

Right.

It has been my experience on this board that Christians are often the most quick to find persecution yet are the least able to notice other groups being targetted. In fact, they are often the ones doing the targetting.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Sasha, I never said that I see ONLY Christianity being mocked here. I do see it mocked the most frequently.

Well, that depends. We don't discuss FLDS or Scientology often, but I'll bet that 99.9% of those threads are resoundingly negative (and dismissive, especially in the case of Scientology). That percentage is not as high in threads about Christianity.

[Babyhellfire]

And *I've* seen many different religions get bashed here. By Christians. Several people have.

I have never done it.
I may have seen it- but you can be certain when I have, I have expressed my disapproval then as well as I am now.
I hate bashing people based on their religious beliefs.
I have seen people bash religion and I have also seen then get deep fried over it.
I never got the feeling such things were acceptable here.
I don't get this justification as if ,its ok to bash christianity all of the sudden , because someone else on this board once bashed other religions here.
I don't think it is acceptable to do either,and I don't think it ever has been here...
and even if someone had came on and saw fit to mock another faith would it really make it acceptable to turn it around yourself and be intolerant to another faith right back??

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

I don't get this justification as if ,its ok to bash christianity all of the sudden , because someone else on this board once bashed other religions here.

Who said that?

[JudyJudyJudy]

Well, that depends. We don't discuss FLDS or Scientology often, but I'll bet that 99.9% of those threads are resoundingly negative (and dismissive, especially in the case of Scientology). That percentage is not as high in threads about Christianity.
In my experience, the Scientology threads have been almost 100% negative (with only 1-3 of us defending Scientologists, so, overall, they were negative). Some who are always exclaiming that others should respect their religious beliefs said that they didn't have to respect the beliefs of Scientologists because they don't consider Scientology to be a religion.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

That's exactly how I remember it as well, Judy.

[CatSoup]

Right.

It has been my experience on this board that Christians are often the most quick to find persecution yet are the least able to notice other groups being targetted. In fact, they are often the ones doing the targetting.

Or,it could be that it hasn't been done while I was online.

[steelady]

I have never done it.
I may have seen it- but you can be certain when I have, I have expressed my disapproval then as well as I am now.
I hate bashing people based on their religious beliefs.
I have seen people bash religion and I have also seen then get deep fried over it.
I never got the feeling such things were acceptable here.
I don't get this justification as if ,its ok to bash christianity all of the sudden , because someone else on this board once bashed other religions here.
I don't think it is acceptable to do either,and I don't think it ever has been here...
and even if someone had came on and saw fit to mock another faith would it really make it acceptable to turn it around yourself and be intolerant to another faith right back??

Who said anything about justifying bashing anyone's religion? Those on this thread who are "bashing" (and I don't agree with that characterization) have been remarkably consistent in their criticisms, that I can recall. They are also those who are the first ones to defend Christians (admittedly Christians with whom many mainstream Christians disagree) against others.

Pointing out apparent hypocrisies is not the same as justification.

[steelady]

Or,it could be that it hasn't been done while I was online.

No need to cram your foot into someone else's shoe, then.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Or,it could be that it hasn't been done while I was online.

Okay. However, it completely negates the "Christians are the ONLY group that it's okay to discriminate against" argument.

[Tweet]

I feel like I've missed something because I'm not sure what past threads about Scientology and JW have to do with this thread. I've even tried to go back in the thread and still don't understand. In this thread, I haven't seen any Christian attack any other faith or lack of faith.

And I am wondering why the dissection of Tata's beliefs. There were others that also stated their beliefs..Texasmama(hopefully I have that username right)and some others. I'm not understanding why Tata's faith is any more sick, ugly or what have you.

[CatSoup]

Okay. However, it completely negates the "Christians are the ONLY group that it's okay to discriminate against" argument.

It does, but I didn't say that either.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

And you are not the only person to whom I am speaking.

[Aeonkat]

Predictable Aeon. Someone disagrees with you and you reduce yourself to cursing and name calling. Good job being a grown up.

My point is as stated,I've seen all of this before here. Christian bashing is sport to you.


Heh. That is the thing, you didn't disagree with me. You didn't offer shit in this thread. All you are doing is making statements that make no sense and are confusing people who are trying to debate. Not answer your asinine questions. Since hen is cursing considered not being a grown up? I thought only "grown ups" cursed? I didn't call you any names btw. Stating you are annoying is an observance. You offer nothing to these threads, but complain, why bother?

[tata]

She didn't say that. She never said anyone "deserved" anything, just that the purpose behind it may be to pay for actions in a past life. Difference between rehabilitation and punishment, in a way.

I don't believe this or follow this type of theology (for want of a better word), but it is too simplistic to think "you did something wrong in a past life and now your children are killed as payment". It could be the soul of the child that dies that has to "learn" something, or the doctor or .....Life is more intertwined and complex to think A is only in reaction to B, etc.
Thanks. Again, you have articulated what I struggle to say.

[steelady]

I feel like I've missed something because I'm not sure what past threads about Scientology and JW have to do with this thread. I've even tried to go back in the thread and still don't understand. In this thread, I haven't seen any Christian attack any other faith or lack of faith.

And I am wondering why the dissection of Tata's beliefs. There were others that also stated their beliefs..Texasmama(hopefully I have that username right)and some others. I'm not understanding why Tata's faith is any more sick, ugly or what have you.


I realize this was rhetorical,but I'm avoiding a report I have to write so I went back to try and figure out where the detour occurred.

Tata is the only one who put forth a controversial belief, Texasmom put forth her opinion just a few pages ago, so the Tata dissection was already in full stride. Regardless, Judy did address her (Texasmom) as well.

The comments about how other religions are treated on this board came about when someone mentioned that it seems as if it is ok to bash Christianity on this board, yet Judy and others stated that Christianity is not the only religion bashed (or mocked)--or more specifically it seems acceptable to bash certain religions, yet not others.

I'm not sure why it matters if Christians are the one bashing or not, since I see little difference between an atheist saying Christians are whack and a Christian saying Scientology is crazy.

And a whole lot of cramming of people's feet into non-fitting shoes. Some are forcing shoes onto others, some onto their own feet.

Now I want a new pair of leather boots, something with a small wedge heal and reaches my knee.

[Tweet]

WEll, that image made me chuckle. I'm picturing a bunch of people sitting around with shoes in their mouths.

[Gigi]

Unexpected but NOT an accident, Conceived in the mind of God, Image-bearer created for eternal destiny, Fashioned by His hand- and perfectly planned!


Above is a pro-life statement. Do pro-life people really believe that God plans everything, the rape victim that gets pregnant, the child who gets sexually abused and pregnant? Really? Can someone shed some light on this? Im not going into pro-choice or pro-life I really just want to know if what i have asked is true?


I have read every post on this thread, and I've been both enlightened and disgusted.

I'm going to try to answer the OP to the best of my feeble ability, despite the turn the thread has taken.

I believe that every child conceived has a place in God's creation, be it for a few weeks in a mother's womb or for a few moments in her arms or for 85 years. For what purpose? Not something my human imagination can comprehend, but my best guess would be to allow the experience of unconditional love.

As far as rape or abuse goes, those are not things of God. God has no fellowship with evil actions or intentions. The abuser/rapist may be a creature of His but the actions of the creature are not God's, they are the creature's.

God does not and would not commission such horrors. They are the exact opposite of his nature, which is love itself.

I think we all look for ways to explain away the bad things that people do and the bad things that happen to people (natural disasters, loss of livelihood or health, etc...). Our human nature seeks out someone or something to blame in order for our minds to make sense of the senseless.

Who's right? Who knows. If it brings you peace and comfort, cling to it. We'll find out one way or another in the end, eh?

[TuetonicWillow]

Christian bashing is sport to you.


I was unaware that the whole past lives/karma/karmic debt belief system was remotely Christian.

Either you're jumping to conclusions and being defensive or I'm ill informed about this new sect.

[steelady]

I was unaware that the whole past lives/karma/karmic debt belief system was remotely Christian.

Either you're jumping to conclusions and being defensive or I'm ill informed about this new sect.
Aeon posted before Tata with the "bashiing".

Just to keep the record clean.

(totally tongue in cheek)

[tata]

I'm not sure why it matters if Christians are the one bashing or not, since I see little difference between an atheist saying Christians are whack and a Christian saying Scientology is crazy.
In all honesty, I think this is the heart of the matter.

I don't much care if Judy has defended one or a hundred religions before, because here and now she is telling me that my beliefs are sick and she disrespects them.

*I* have never bashed or disrespected anyone's beliefs or lack thereof. I'm seriously put off that it is okay with her (and others) to justify the mocking of my beliefs simply because someone else did it to them and/or others.

[steelady]

I have read every post on this thread, and I've been both enlightened and disgusted.

I'm going to try to answer the OP to the best of my feeble ability, despite the turn the thread has taken.

I believe that every child conceived has a place in God's creation, be it for a few weeks in a mother's womb or for a few moments in her arms or for 85 years. For what purpose? Not something my human imagination can comprehend, but my best guess would be to allow the experience of unconditional love.

As far as rape or abuse goes, those are not things of God. God has no fellowship with evil actions or intentions. The abuser/rapist may be a creature of His but the actions of the creature are not God's, they are the creature's.

God does not and would not commission such horrors. They are the exact opposite of his nature, which is love itself.

I think we all look for ways to explain away the bad things that people do and the bad things that happen to people (natural disasters, loss of livelihood or health, etc...). Our human nature seeks out someone or something to blame in order for our minds to make sense of the senseless.

Who's right? Who knows. If it brings you peace and comfort, cling to it. We'll find out one way or another in the end, eh?

If one believes we are all a part of some master plan, how can the actions on this planet not be the responsibility of the person who developed the Plan?

This is not aimed at you, since your post doesn't imply that we are all a part of any natural plan.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

I've not justified a fucking thing. I'm simply refuting the complaint that Christians are the *only* group that are ever spoken against.

[steelady]

In all honesty, I think this is the heart of the matter.

I don't much care if Judy has defended one or a hundred religions before, because here and now she is telling me that my beliefs are sick and she disrespects them.

*I* have never bashed or disrespected anyone's beliefs or lack thereof. I'm seriously put off that it is okay with her (and others) to justify the mocking of my beliefs simply because someone else did it to them and/or others.

I will disagree with you about the mocking. I didn't see what I would say was mocking of your beliefs, just a hyperbolic expression of what they think your views mean.

I agree that Judy and others expressed their views in a rude and demeaning way. However, neither she nor others are saying what they are doing is cool because others do it. Just that they are being consistent (in how they treat all religions, and I would have to agree with them) and that this is not Christian bashing.

With respect to respect/disrespect, well, I don't think religious beliefs do deserve automatic respect and I don't see anyone getting a free pass from anyone else. I mean, Judy (to use her as an example) was called out, wasn't she?

[TuetonicWillow]

I don't respect your beliefs, Tata. I don't DISresect them. I just don't think your school of thought is logical, sensible or even fair, to be quite honest. That is not to say that I think you don't have the right to believe whatever you want.

I'm so pro separation of church and state that I'd defned your right to worship laundry detergent as a deity. That still doesn't mean I will pretend to think you have some enlightened sense of faith nor does it mean I will smile and say, "Wow, far out. I totally don't agree that what we get is what we sowed in lives past but if you believe it, I respect it."

Nope. I don't. I won't. I'm not going to pretend that a beliefe is sacred because it isn't.

I think the lines are crossed here. *All* beliefs or lack thereof are open to scrutiny and disagreement and fierce rebuttal. Everyone has to deal with that because ultimately, everyone is "persecuted" in some way at some point. No matter what we do or do not believe, we're told how wrong we are.

[JudyJudyJudy]

In all honesty, I think this is the heart of the matter.

I don't much care if Judy has defended one or a hundred religions before, because here and now she is telling me that my beliefs are sick and she disrespects them.

*I* have never bashed or disrespected anyone's beliefs or lack thereof. I'm seriously put off that it is okay with her (and others) to justify the mocking of my beliefs simply because someone else did it to them and/or others.
I haven't seen anybody justifying anything, just discussing things. I also haven't "mocked" your beliefs (at least according to my definition). Yes, I said that the whole "karmic debt" idea was a sick way of thinking, but I didn't mock. Nothing about it was funny to me.

[CatSoup]

I was unaware that the whole past lives/karma/karmic debt belief system was remotely Christian.

Either you're jumping to conclusions and being defensive or I'm ill informed about this new sect.

I didn't mean the general you. I was specifically talking to Aeon. I should have said religion bashing though.

[topamicha]

Not in my opinion. I think it's ALL bunk.

I don't see how Tata's beliefs are anymore offensive than statements like this that discount the very thing that gives so many people hope.

I don't really have an issue with such statements, nor do I have an issue with Tata sharing her beliefs, but I do find it somewhat hypocritical.

Now that I've said that, I don't think faith is above reproach either. Maybe now I sound hypocritical, LOL.

Both makes me shudder.

Personally, I feel those statements are arrogant and de-humanize the person experiencing the tragedy.

I'm not sure how they're any more arrogant than the belief that there is no god or that all religious beliefs are "bunk." While I can see how one might find them as de-humanizing, I can see how it might be equally discouraging to be told that all one's sorrow and suffering are for naught, that there is no divine plan, that you go through life, suffer, and die, and that's that.

Some find it comforting that even throughout suffering, there is a loving God and there is hope, some find it infuriating. I can't imagine how one is supposed to predict which type of person someone is, so they can accordingly censor themself.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Some find it comforting that even throughout suffering, there is a loving God and there is hope, some find it infuriating. I can't imagine how one is supposed to predict which type of person someone is, so they can accordingly censor themself.
The best way is to make no assumptions. Don't assume that I believe like you (the general you) when I've lost a loved one, when I've had a miscarriage, when infertility is being discussed, etc.

[steelady]

<snip>


I'm not sure how they're any more arrogant than the belief that there is no god or that all religious beliefs are "bunk." While I can see how one might find them as de-humanizing, I can see how it might be equally discouraging to be told that all one's sorrow and suffering are for naught, that there is no divine plan, that you go through life, suffer, and die, and that's that.

Some find it comforting that even throughout suffering, there is a loving God and there is hope, some find it infuriating. I can't imagine how one is supposed to predict which type of person someone is, so they can accordingly censor themself.

The arrogance is in the fact that what happens to person A is for the purpose of bettering person B. Not that one's view of God is better or worse than anothers (or lack of faith). It isn't about a person being arrogant for feeling that way.

Or to put it another way, the belief that A's suffering is so that B can learn something, grow, etc. is arrogant (the intent and purpose of the suffering is so that others/the person learns/grows) and objectifies the person and situation. Maybe you viewed my words in this way and still think they are arrogant, if so, please explain further since I can't see it (and I would like to see it if it is there).

And maybe arrogant is the wrong word? Perhaps what I should have said was self-centered or selfish or something; the idea that things happen for your (general) benefit/purpose or the intent of things are to impact you/your life.

Actually, typing that out, I would have to say arrogance isn't the best word.

[Aeonkat]

I didn't mean the general you. I was specifically talking to Aeon. I should have said religion bashing though.


Show me where I "bashed" religion. What exactly is religion bashing? Disagreeing with your faith and claiming it is full of holes and contradictions is not bashing in any sense. You take offense to that, that is your problem because its YOUR religion that has holes.

[steelady]

Show me where I "bashed" religion. What exactly is religion bashing? Disagreeing with your faith and claiming it is full of holes and contradictions is not bashing in any sense. You take offense to that, that is your problem because its YOUR religion that has holes, not mine.


Aeon, you do bash organized religion, or rather it isn't a stretch (nor unreasonable, IMO) to view "organized religion is the downfall of the world" as a bash (though that is a paraphrase).

That's not a judgment (from me) but to say you don't do anything more than poke holes is somewhat disingenuous.

[Aeonkat]

Aeon, you do bash organized religion, or rather it isn't a stretch (nor unreasonable, IMO) to view "organized religion is the downfall of the world" as a bash (though that is a paraphrase).

That's not a judgment (from me) but to say you don't do anything more than poke holes is somewhat disingenuous.


I'm talking about this thread. I do not feel I bashed any religion in this thread. Not saying I haven't spoken against religion in the past. Just pointing out catsoup's bullshit in this thread.

[Aqua_Diamond]

Show me where I "bashed" religion. What exactly is religion bashing? Disagreeing with your faith and claiming it is full of holes and contradictions is not bashing in any sense. You take offense to that, that is your problem because its YOUR religion that has holes, not mine.

This bothers me.

You say you disagree with certain faiths because YOU think they have "contradictions" and "holes" and then you follow up that statement to say that your religion doesn't have those things.

Why is your religion the one that is right? Of course, the answer is because it is YOUR religion. So why can't the religion of the other person be right to them?

You don't need to go around saying yours is right and others are wrong. Each persons own personal faith/religion is right to him/her individually.

[Aeonkat]

This bothers me.

You say you disagree with certain faiths because YOU think they have "contradictions" and "holes" and then you follow up that statement to say that your religion doesn't have those things.

Why is your religion the one that is right? Of course, the answer is because it is YOUR religion. So why can't the religion of the other person be right to them?

You don't need to go around saying yours is right and others are wrong. Each persons own personal faith/religion is right to he/she individually.

LOL. I have no religion. Simple figure of speech. I guess I should have been more clear, sorry. I am a spiritual atheist. I am anti-organized religion.

[Aqua_Diamond]

Aeon, I knew that already. I've read posts before about your spirituality.
For you, that's what's right. If I decided to point out contradictions or holes in your belief system, it would by hypocritical of me.

[JillyG]

For me it's not a literal interpretation of those words - it's a faith that no matter what happens, God is with me and will help me if I only have faith in Him and His will.
I don't believe that God causes or plans horrible things - I believe that He allows for free will without intervening - that means that my life might be horribly affected by someone else exercizing their free will, yk? Which sucks - but since I believe that I am not alone in my agony (God will see me through kind of thing) I can find comfort.

I would never EVER think of it like someone "had it coming" to be raped or bludgeoned or abused....NEVER. I don't think karma always works like that. I don't know how to describe my beliefs but I think it's possible for us to be caught up in someone else's karma by way of the free will thing - we choose to walk to the store at the corner, and someone else chose to go to the same store and hold it up at gunpoint - not like God PUT us there, just that He's AWARE of that and doesn't interfere...I know it sounds like I'm saying my God ALLOWS it but that's not it either.
This is toooo complicated for my tired brain to elaborate further so I hope that is at least a start...
FWIW I am a lapsed but faithful Catholic

[Sunnie]

Right.

It has been my experience on this board that Christians are often the most quick to find persecution yet are the least able to notice other groups being targetted. In fact, they are often the ones doing the targetting.


That's been my experience as well.

[JudyJudyJudy]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/babyjacobsmom/51SD22EBAML__AA240_.jpg

[JudyJudyJudy]

Dh and I had to rent a truck this past weekend to move some stuff. I drove it, and dh called me a mother trucker.

[Ilovemonkeys]

Explain to me how a child being raped would ever make them a better person? and is there any reason (this is to tata too) for a child to be abused in god's plan?


I'm not a Christian and I don't believe in "God" so I don't believe in "God's Plan" but I do believe that some really horrible things have happened to me, personally in my life. I don't know why they happened, but I can appreciate and be thankful for the choices I have. I can deal with it, learn from it and move on. I know some people can't. I don't know why.

But I do believe that those lessons i've learned in this lifetime, from abuse, sexual assault and death will in the end serve to make my soul stronger.