need to vent & need advice (xposted)

[pbear13]

First off sorry if this gets to be long. I have tried talking to others about it but they are related to me so I need someone's opinion, if you don't mind.


A little background first, I have 2 dc, a dd who will be 5 in Aug. and a ds who just turned 2 in June. I have been a sahm and for extra money been watching my cousin's 2 boys ( 3 1/2 year old and almost 2 year old). They had previously been going to their Grandmothers, but she would let them do whatever they wanted and let them have whatever. She wasn't helping my cousin w/ potty training the oldest one (who had been in pullups for over a year) and taking the bottle from the youngest. The oldest also wasn't talking much he had delay problem ( I still think he may have a disorder). So my cousin found another babysitter to take them to until 3:00 than I would pick them. Well after having them for 3 months, we (the other babysitter & me) had him potty trained, took him out of pull-ups and I took the bottle away from the youngest. Than with the gas prices & everything going up in price I found a parttime job for 4hrs at night. So the kids stayed w/ my dh. Everything was going good, the kids for the most get along.


Now for my vent, Last week my cousin came to talk to me about my son. She said her and her dh wasn't happy with the bite marks on their kids. And until my ds got out of the phase their kids weren't coming back. The fact the pissed me off was, she was blaming it all on my ds. No, I am not agreeing he should bite but there is a reason for it and I'm not saying it is all her kids faults either. They have taught their dc to hit and think it would be better for my ds to hit instead of bite. Her oldest isn't good about sharing and if my ds had it first or was trying to get a toy he would hit my ds and the littlest one would pinch or hit. My ds sometimes would hit back but since it didn't help or get a reaction, he starting biting ( I am assuming this). And it isn't like I don't do anyting when they do this, I have put them in time outs, make them say sorry and so on. A lot of people told us to bite him back (which I disagreed with) but my dh thought he would try it. Guess what it didn't work. Like I told her, some days they would tell he bit and their wasn't any marks and no crying ( her oldest liked to repeat things over & over) and other days when she said they were bite marks nobody said anything or cried. So if I don't know it there is nothing I can do. She thinks it is just mine ds that needs to change that it is alright for theirs to hit, she even told me they would rather than dc have brusies or black eyes than bite marks. To me there is no difference. I realize children aren't always going to get along and they are going to fight. But it seems to be happening more & more.

So we decided to give the kids a brake for eachother for awhile, she said until my ds is over his phase. My dh & I decided it would be a good idea for at least a month if not longer (until school starts) Well we had a 4 day weekend and Monday she called to tell me she would be here at regular time to get the kids. I was like what the ??????? I am not having the kids. She got all pissed cause I wasn't going to pick them up. She was going to have to go get them and take them back to work ( her & her dh have their own company) with her.


So what do you think? Any ideas what else we could do about the biting & hitting? What would you have done when she called on Monday?? Thanks for any input you can give. Like I said I only have family members to talk to about this. Dh was pissed (so was I) she putting the blame on only our ds and wanted me to tell her I was done watching them for good. I thought about but the extra money was nice and when school starts I am suppose to take her oldest to preschool cause noone else can. I am afraid if I don't do it he won't go and I think he really needs he seems really behind to me.


Thanks again for letting me "rant" & sorry for the long post.

[steelady]

Just as an FYI, break that sucker into paragraphs, it's just tough to read (especially for old farts like me).

[TuetonicWillow]

I tried to read it.

I can't understand what you want. Do you want advice on how to get the kids to stop biting? Advice on getting them not to hit? Advice on handling the family?

What exactly are you asking?

I'm sorry but your post is just jumbled and makes little sense.

[peytonsmommie]

Yes it was VERY hard to read! I kept losing my place!

[J-A-N-E]

I don't understand your entire rant. But I am sorry you are having a rough time of it with biting and your cousin.

Perhaps asking a specific question would help.

[steelady]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are right, there is no difference between hitting, biting and pinching with respect to causes and consequences.

All of the kids need to be shown a better way of interacting, not just time outs and playing the blame game. When do they hit/bite? What can be done to prevent those situations and how is everyone going to work on it?

If your cousin isn't willing to work with you (since her kids' behaviors are instigating your ds's biting), then it seems like it would best if they weren't together until they are older and can vocalize their emotions rather than physically act on them.

I'm sure I missed a bunch, but those are my thoughts. I do want to say that 3.5 isn't that old to not be potty trained and there is nothing really wrong with wanting or using a bottle at 2. Not sure why those issues matter, anyway.

eta-do NOT bite back, it hardly ever works and you may find he actually likes the sensation (DS started biting his own hand rather than others and his finger is pretty damaged now)

[steelady]

I don't mean to harp, but this may help others read it:

First off sorry if this gets to be long. I have tried talking to others about it but they are related to me so I need someone's opinion, if you don't mind.

A little background first, I have 2 dc, a dd who will be 5 in Aug. and a ds who just turned 2 in June. I have been a sahm and for extra money been watching my cousin's 2 boys ( 3 1/2 year old and almost 2 year old). They had previously been going to their Grandmothers, but she would let them do whatever they wanted and let them have whatever. She wasn't helping my cousin w/ potty training the oldest one (who had been in pullups for over a year) and taking the bottle from the youngest. The oldest also wasn't talking much he had delay problem ( I still think he may have a disorder). So my cousin found another babysitter to take them to until 3:00 than I would pick them. Well after having them for 3 months, we (the other babysitter & me) had him potty trained, took him out of pull-ups and I took the bottle away from the youngest. Than with the gas prices & everything going up in price I found a parttime job for 4hrs at night. So the kids stayed w/ my dh. Everything was going good, the kids for the most get along.


Now for my vent, Last week my cousin came to talk to me about my son. She said her and her dh wasn't happy with the bite marks on their kids. And until my ds got out of the phase their kids weren't coming back. The fact the pissed me off was, she was blaming it all on my ds. No, I am not agreeing he should bite but there is a reason for it and I'm not saying it is all her kids faults either. They have taught their dc to hit and think it would be better for my ds to hit instead of bite. Her oldest isn't good about sharing and if my ds had it first or was trying to get a toy he would hit my ds and the littlest one would pinch or hit. My ds sometimes would hit back but since it didn't help or get a reaction, he starting biting ( I am assuming this). And it isn't like I don't do anyting when they do this, I have put them in time outs, make them say sorry and so on.

A lot of people told us to bite him back (which I disagreed with) but my dh thought he would try it. Guess what it didn't work. Like I told her, some days they would tell he bit and their wasn't any marks and no crying ( her oldest liked to repeat things over & over) and other days when she said they were bite marks nobody said anything or cried. So if I don't know it there is nothing I can do.

She thinks it is just mine ds that needs to change that it is alright for theirs to hit, she even told me they would rather than dc have brusies or black eyes than bite marks. To me there is no difference. I realize children aren't always going to get along and they are going to fight. But it seems to be happening more & more. So we decided to give the kids a brake for eachother for awhile, she said until my ds is over his phase. My dh & I decided it would be a good idea for at least a month if not longer (until school starts) Well we had a 4 day weekend and Monday she called to tell me she would be here at regular time to get the kids. I was like what the ??????? I am not having the kids. She got all pissed cause I wasn't going to pick them up. She was going to have to go get them and take them back to work ( her & her dh have their own company) with her.

So what do you think? Any ideas what else we could do about the biting & hitting? What would you have done when she called on Monday?? Thanks for any input you can give. Like I said I only have family members to talk to about this. Dh was pissed (so was I) she putting the blame on only our ds and wanted me to tell her I was done watching them for good. I thought about but the extra money was nice and when school starts I am suppose to take her oldest to preschool cause noone else can. I am afraid if I don't do it he won't go and I think he really needs he seems really behind to me.

Thanks again for letting me "rant" & sorry for the long post.

[babymakes4]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are right, there is no difference between hitting, biting and pinching with respect to causes and consequences.

All of the kids need to be shown a better way of interacting, not just time outs and playing the blame game. When do they hit/bite? What can be done to prevent those situations and how is everyone going to work on it?

If your cousin isn't willing to work with you (since her kids' behaviors are instigating your ds's biting), then it seems like it would best if they weren't together until they are older and can vocalize their emotions rather than physically act on them.

I'm sure I missed a bunch, but those are my thoughts. I do want to say that 3.5 isn't that old to not be potty trained and there is nothing really wrong with wanting or using a bottle at 2. Not sure why those issues matter, anyway.


I agree with all of this except, with all do respect, it really depends on what is IN the bottle. I have no problem with a 2 year old having a bottle of water, but if it's koolaid or soda or something, that just isn't right.

[3girls2luv]

Ok let see if I can clarify. You babysit two boys who hit and yours started biting to defend himself. The mom and dad of the boys you sit for got upset bc of the bite marks. Your DH bit your son to see if it would teach him to stop biting and it did not work. The kids stopped comeing to your house cuz the parents did not like that you ds was biting their ds who hits yours.
Now she wants to bring them back and you dont want to watch them anymore bc they put the blame on your ds for biting when in fact their son was just as much at fault for hitting. Is this correct?

[steelady]

I agree with all of this except, with all do respect, it really depends on what is IN the bottle. I have no problem with a 2 year old having a bottle of water, but if it's koolaid or soda or something, that just isn't right.


You are correct. I was ASSuming milk or ebm.

It's been way too long since I've done the bottle thing or noticed them.

[babymakes4]

You are correct. I was ASSuming milk or ebm.

It's been way too long since I've done the bottle thing or noticed them.


yeah. IME even with ebm or milk it still isn't good to give a bottle after 10-12 months. The liquid tends to stay on the teeth longer, especially if the baby is acustomed to falling asleep with a bottle. I once babysat a little girl who was 3 and still had a bottle of milk at every nap time and every bed time, she would fall asleep with it in her mout every time. By the time she was 3 1/2 all her front teeth were rotting out of her mouth. :( If only her parents had taken the bottle away or insisted she drink water......

(sorry for the bit of a hijack)

[steelady]

yeah. IME even with ebm or milk it still isn't good to give a bottle after 10-12 months. The liquid tends to stay on the teeth longer, especially if the baby is acustomed to falling asleep with a bottle. I once babysat a little girl who was 3 and still had a bottle of milk at every nap time and every bed time, she would fall asleep with it in her mout every time. By the time she was 3 1/2 all her front teeth were rotting out of her mouth. :( If only her parents had taken the bottle away or insisted she drink water......

(sorry for the bit of a hijack)


Not to hijack further, but that is true before 12 months as well. Bottles are a tool that can be misused. But there is nothing inherently wrong (and hey, I can be educated) in a bottle, just how it is used. Same could be said of breastfeeding at night, yet I doubt you (and maybe you would) advocate for weaning at 10-12 months for tooth decay.

[babymakes4]

Not to hijack further, but that is true before 12 months as well. Bottles are a tool that can be misused. But there is nothing inherently wrong (and hey, I can be educated) in a bottle, just how it is used. Same could be said of breastfeeding at night, yet I doubt you (and maybe you would) advocate for weaning at 10-12 months for tooth decay.


I agree with you and isn't it true (and i could be wrong) that since breastfed babies hold the nipple farther back in their mouth they are less likely to suffer cavities?

[steelady]

I don't know. I do know some families who had to have dental work on the breast fed child, but that was because of other teeth issues (weak enamel, or something like that) and not just because they held the milk in their mouth.

[babymakes4]

I don't know. I do know some families who had to have dental work on the breast fed child, but that was because of other teeth issues (weak enamel, or something like that) and not just because they held the milk in their mouth.


Hmmmm, perhaps a good question for the next time I visit the pediatrician.

[pbear13]

Thanks for the replies. I edited to make it easier to read. Hopefully that helped. I know not everyone is pottied trained at a certain age. But she was supposely trying and wasn't having any help.

As for the bottle she had been trying to take it from him and the other sitter(grandma) was helping let him have all day. He only drinks milk (no neither of them were breastfeed), occasionally they would give him ice tea in it. My kids were only bf, no bottles. I was under the assumption the bottle should be gone not much after a year. But I never had that problem so I didn't know. Sorry
So what would you do about the biting??
Would you have taking the kids back on Monday or made her stick to her word (give the kids a break from each other)
Would you take them back at all?

[steelady]

I wouldn't put the kids together if I wasn't prepared to work on the biting, hitting and pinching (yes, I would deal with them the same way).

Do you want advice on biting? I've got tons (ds is a biter), ditto for hitting/pinching (other things ds does, some days I look like a prize fighter).

Biting, in general, is to make up for lack of speech/expressive communication. Providing the child with an alternative means of dealing with the emotions (and this, like everything else is a lesson in patience for the adult) while trying to identify the likely biting moments and working on supporting the kid before the bite (i.e. noticing when it is going to happen prior to the occurrence and intervening) can be a very successful approach.

There aren't any quick answers or solutions. If all parties weren't going to actively work on this, I wouldn't let the kids back. It isn't worth it to your kid to be put in a situation everyday where he is going to bite, then punish him for it.

[steelady]

Hmmmm, perhaps a good question for the next time I visit the pediatrician.


don't forget to report back.

[pbear13]

The reason for rant is because I helped her out in jam, babysitting the kids. It seems to her it alright for her kids to hit etc. but put the blame on my ds for defending himself by biting.

I have witness them playing. Here is an example. The 3 1/2 year old had a car, he put it down and went to play with something else. My ds starting playing with it and the other one noticed tried to take it. My ds said 'I had it'. So the oldest one hit him and took it before I could react my ds bite him.

I showed my ds the owie (bite mark) and said we don't bite that hurts. Told the older one we don't hit, etc. We share the toys, you didn't have it, etc. Told them they both need to go to time out. Made them they sorry & hug.

I did notice the trains were a big problem (even though there was so many the oldest wouldn't let anyone have them) So I put them up when they are here.

I have to get ready for work, so this is my last post for a while.
Hopefully I cleared some things up for everyone.

[Jacksmommy]

I think it's a good idea for the children to be apart for a while. Could it be that the person you babysat for blames your son because he's older? For a lot of people, when a 3 year old and a 5 year old get into a fight, and the 3 year old has bite marks on him, the 5 year old would be blamed.
Steel had some good advice for you on how to work on your ds's biting behavior.

[Tweet]

If I didn't want the stress of babysitting, I'd just say so and state why,politely.

My DS was a biter and still will sometimes do it even now at age 4. To me, there is little difference between that and hitting except there were a few instances where he broke skin.I can't say I'd blame a parent for not wanting their kid around my son until that stopped. It is very distressing when they are breaking skin! We've just kept trying to be very firm, removing him from his little sis and giving him the appropriate vocabulary to express his anger. We also had to watch him like a hawk to try to stop it before it happened.

My son has sensory issues anyway is VERY oral. Having theratubing on hand was great. His therapist gave it to us, but they have some at therapyshoppe.com, I think. Jiggler pens, too.

[steelady]

Therapyshoppe has the tubing, I order it in the largest sizes allowed for ds.

[Nipple_nectar]

At two, he is old enough to understand that biting is not acceptable. As long as you feel the situation is being supervised, I would time him out consistently.

[steelady]

At two, he is old enough to understand that biting is not acceptable. As long as you feel the situation is being supervised, I would time him out consistently.


While showing him what he can do (when he wants to bite). I don't think time outs are very effective, long term, if the child is never taught how to deal with the underlying emotions (or feeling overly emotional).

[pbear13]

How do I teach my ds others ways to defend himself?? This is the only child he bites and I strongly believe it is because of him getting HIT FIRST. He has had confrontation with his sister over toys etc. and never bitten her. He also has been around other kids with no problems with biting.

I am at lost with her oldest dc, I believe he is immature for his age. He has a hard time following rules because he had no rules at grandma's & not followed through with rules at home. I know the other babysitter that has them the first part of the day (before I pick them up) has been having problems with hitting to. Any ideas??

Thanks for the feedback

[meatwad]

I tried to read it.

I can't understand what you want. Do you want advice on how to get the kids to stop biting? Advice on getting them not to hit? Advice on handling the family?

What exactly are you asking?

I'm sorry but your post is just jumbled and makes little sense.


I think she's upset because her cousin is blaming the biting on her child?? (I admit to only skimming)

If that is indeed the case, I agree with your cousin. It doesn't matter who instigated the biting, or whether or not her kid hit your kid first. The point is, the kids clash, and would both be better off under different circumstances.

[nikkifaith]

I am leaning towards quitting if you don't really need the money and I do mean need. It sounds like your kid is stressed out about the situation and feeling out of control. Couple that with your cousin behaving like an entitled skag and wala, presto quit-o.

[chinapiggy]

I would quit. Tell her you cannot deal with her child hitting so much. The child cann only learn if you and the mother are consistent and it seems as if she is encouraging hitting as a way to get what he wants. I would not watch them and jus tell her. You are doing her no favors by sugar coating things for her. she is going to get a rude awakening when he actually starts school. That is just my two cents to add to previous posters. Biting is not to be taken lightly so helping him find ways to get his feelings across is better. I would hvae been pissed had she blamed my kid, said she did not want her kids there, then called to say they are going there anyway. Good luck.

[Tulip]

When she called on Monday about the children why didn't you remind her that *she* said the arrangement was off? You're not a mind reader for Pete's sake.

I'd personally want a more stable client. Blessing you out about your child biting, not acknowledging her children's role in those situations, canceling the arrangement and then calling days later like nothing happened is just odd and frustrating.

You can still do childcare for extra money AND find a child or children that interact better with your child.

If you want to work things out with her, then sit down and talk about it like adults. Explain your approach to date to keep the peace between the kids and talk about what else she thinks can be done to diffuse the situation. This would also be a good time to talk about any new ideas you have for helping the boys get along.

To me it sounds like the kids need more shadowing when they're together. You said you couldn't get to them before the child hit your son and your son retaliated with a bite. You need to be closer to them so you can intervene immediately when the scuffle for toys starts. Correct them before they injure each other.

[Jacksmommy]

How do I teach my ds others ways to defend himself?? This is the only child he bites and I strongly believe it is because of him getting HIT FIRST. He has had confrontation with his sister over toys etc. and never bitten her. He also has been around other kids with no problems with biting.

I am at lost with her oldest dc, I believe he is immature for his age. He has a hard time following rules because he had no rules at grandma's & not followed through with rules at home. I know the other babysitter that has them the first part of the day (before I pick them up) has been having problems with hitting to. Any ideas??

Thanks for the feedback




What you're doing - telling them not to hit, bite, etc, puting them in time out, making them apologize and hug after is, I think, not at all a bad way to handle it once it's happened. I think the thing to work on next is preventing it from happening in the first place. Maybe that means separating the boys when they start to sound less happy. Maybe that means playing with them or being very close to them while they are playing. Maybe that means reminding them what the rules are every day before you let them play together. Maybe that means setting up a reward system for when they play nicely together.

[pbear13]

When she called Monday, I did tell her it was her idea and if she changed her mind about it she should have called over the weekend. She said she thought maybe the 4 day was enough. I explained they didn't just need a break, they need to learn how to interact with each other.

She got pissed off and said fine. That was part of my rant. She thought I was just going to forget about the conversation on Thursday and just act like nothing happened.

The two younger ones (they are only 2 months apart) interact pretty good with each other. The problem starts when the older one interfers. So if I do end up watching them again, I will keep them seperated for the most part. Otherwise I will be in the room.

Thanks for all your input. And giving me different opinions, I really appreciate it. ;)

[KerryS]

I agree with all of this except, with all do respect, it really depends on what is IN the bottle. I have no problem with a 2 year old having a bottle of water, but if it's koolaid or soda or something, that just isn't right.

But the issue isn't the bottle, it's the contents. The OP implied that the issue was having a bottle, period.

[steelady]

How do I teach my ds others ways to defend himself?? This is the only child he bites and I strongly believe it is because of him getting HIT FIRST. He has had confrontation with his sister over toys etc. and never bitten her. He also has been around other kids with no problems with biting.

I am at lost with her oldest dc, I believe he is immature for his age. He has a hard time following rules because he had no rules at grandma's & not followed through with rules at home. I know the other babysitter that has them the first part of the day (before I pick them up) has been having problems with hitting to. Any ideas??

Thanks for the feedback
The older child has a language delay, correct? His actions could be related to not being able to speak appropriately-express himself- or an indication of an underlying problem (autism, just as an example).

IMO, it isn't about teaching your child a better self-defense mechanism-biting is pretty good (IMHO) in that arena. It seems to me a better way to manage conflict is what is needed-role playing, giving him something else (like get you) to do but attack back.

Find out why the kid is hitting, what is causing it (is he hungary, the lights too bright, hot/cold, too noisy, too much input) and work on a combination of prevention (make sure he is fed, comfortable, take transition to/from areas, remove or fascillitate play) and re-direction/discipline (as in, we don't hit, we do X, Y, Z). Working with the parents and the other babysitter to provide consistency is very beneficial.

[pbear13]

But the issue isn't the bottle, it's the contents. The OP implied that the issue was having a bottle, period.


I wasn't trying to imply anything with him having a bottle or the oldest one not being potty trained. I was just implying I helped her out by working with her on those issues. Since the grandmother wasn't. I feel I helped her out by babysitting her kids because she wasn't satisified with the care the grandmother was providing.

It just irrates me I helped her out with the bottle & pottytraining issues. But now that we have hitting, biting and pinching issues, she isn't backing me up or helping me out with the situation.

My dc never had bottles, so I don't have much experience with them. I have just heard they usually are taking away around the 1 year mark. I have no problem if children have them longer, I don't agree with older children having them, walking around having them hang out of their mouths etc. But it isn't my concern, know what I mean?

When I first started watching her dc. The oldest one didn't speak much, didn't know how to communicate. Most of the was from lack of interaction. I worked with, interacted etc. and now he is much better. Still not where he should be by standards or milestones, but that is why I convinced her to get him sign up for Preschool. To see what the teachers think. Since she won't talk to the Dr. about it.

[Iconoclast]

Honestly, it doesn't sound worth the aggravation. I'd quit.

[TuetonicWillow]

Honestly, it doesn't sound worth the aggravation. I'd quit.


Hell to the yes.

Screw all that. Cannot possibly be worth the aggravation.