Well shut my mouth, I may be a Ferber convert

[ChristineLynne]

I have always thought Ferberizing=CIO=bad idea. However, over the past month or two, the sleep situation in our house has brought us to the brink of disaster. My depression is coming back after a long remission, my husband is getting in trouble at work for being out so much and not being his usual competent self when he is there, and our five year old is an emotional orphan.

Claire (almost 6mo) was getting up every 90 minutes or so all night, and nursing more and more often. I don't think it was a growth spurt, as her daytime nursing has not increased. Now, I know for a lot of people the answer to such a situation is cosleeping, and I think that is great. It just doesn't work for us due to comfort (I don't really sleep, just doze, when she's with me), risk factors (obesity, sleep disorders), and DH not endorsing the idea.

So in desperation, I bought Ferber's book. I wanted to read and research and see what I thought. To my surprise, he doesn't advocate CIO, as I think of it. To me that means that you put the baby in a crib with the goal of having them cry themselves into exhaustion, until they give up trying to get you to come and accept being left each night. Ferber, on the other hand, advocates changing the child's sleep associations (having them fall asleep in the same conditions they will encounter when they briefly wake at night). And he offers suggestions on how to cope with your child crying because they aren't used to that. The goal is to help your child become accustomed to new circumstances of falling asleep.

And the biggest thing for me is that you do NOT abandon your baby. You are "allowed" to do anything you like to comfort and calm your baby, as long as you aren't putting them to sleep doing it. So we tried it - we didn't have Claire fall asleep in our arms, sucking on a pacifier, but put her down in her crib. But when she got upset, we would yes, give her a few minutes to see if she would settle, but then go in, pick her up, pat her back, give her the pacifier, and so on. We just made sure to put her back into the crib while she was still awake.

Yes, she cried. But never for more than ten minutes without being comforted. Which is more than I can say of some car trips we've taken. If I felt there was an alternative that would have rescued us from the horrible situation without any crying, I would have done it. But No Cry Sleep Solution had not worked, and the distress it caused her was no worse than getting her vaccinated, or heck, putting her clothes on, which she also hates and just has to endure. All things being equal, she is much better off having had a rough couple nights, with parental support, than she would be with an unemployed dad and a crazy mom.

So I just wanted to share, because I had some wrong ideas about this method, and I now feel that it is a reasonable option in the sleep-problem toolbox for parents.

[canukmom]

Good for you CL! This has been a hot topic in our house this past week or so too, and while DD was up every 3 hours like clockwork (not 90 minutes like yours!) I was getting exhausted! Co-Sleeping is also not for us either. We've made some great progress too!

The best article I've read 'sleep training' basically said to do what you need to do -- like you said an unemployed dad and a crazy mom isn't going to be good for her either!

[Psyche]

Hmm. Have you considered that she might be teething and in pain?

Co sleeping isn't for everyone that is true. However, when your baby cries because of a shot, you are right there holding her, not waiting 10 minutes to comfort her.

http://drbenkim.com/articles-attachment-parenting.html

The harm of CIO, even modified CIO, are documented. Harvard released a study about it as well. http://www.sleepnet.com/infant3/messages/534.html

Just because something works, doesn't mean it's not harmful.

I'm sorry you are in a state of sleep deprivation. It sucks, I remember it and am going to experience it again soon. However, there are more techniques out there besides modified CIO and co sleeping.

[ChristineLynne]

Hmm. Have you considered that she might be teething and in pain?Yes, and she does not appear to be.

Co sleeping isn't for everyone that is true. However, when your baby cries because of a shot, you are right there holding her, not waiting 10 minutes to comfort her. This is true. However, I think the car seat analogy holds - sometimes it isn't safe or even possible to pull over and comfort. But safety concerns outweigh the concern that crying for 10 minutes without comfort will cause permanent damage, so I don't climb into the back seat and take her out of her restraints. Similarly, we had reached the point when the known, documented risks of sleeplessness outweighed the possible risks of Ferberizing.

The harm of CIO, even modified CIO, are documented. Harvard released a study about it as well. If you know of some scientific studies documenting harm to infants due to Ferber's method, I would be interested to see them. The links you provided have no such evidence.
I'm sorry you are in a state of sleep deprivation. It sucks, I remember it and am going to experience it again soon. However, there are more techniques out there besides modified CIO and co sleeping.Yes, and we have tried other techniques without success.

[Nipple_nectar]

I'm sorry but anything that leaves my BABY feeling alone and abandoned would not work in my home.

I wouldn't even treat me DH this way and he is fully grown and capable of intricate language skills.

The five year old emotional orphan~ you are going to need alot more than Ferber to fix that.

[Psyche]

http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/bonding/connection.html

If your interested in the documentation (studies, etc) they are foot noted.

Does Ferber provide studies that his technique DOESN"T provide psychological harm? Or are you will to take his word on it?

Power point document on alternate ways to soothe your baby and get sleep. Documentations on the last page

www.transitiontoparenthood.com/ttp/parented/postpartum/SleepingLikeABaby.ppt

[ChristineLynne]

I'm sorry but anything that leaves my BABY feeling alone and abandoned would not work in my home.If you feel this wouldn't work for you, I would never advocate you doing it.

I wouldn't even treat me DH this way and he is fully grown and capable of intricate language skills.If my DH woke me up 5-6 times a night asking me to pat his back to help him get back to sleep, I would ask him to learn how to sleep without my constant intervention, and I'd be less concerned with his reaction to that request, since he is rational and has language skills. YMMV.

The five year old emotional orphan~ you are going to need alot more than Ferber to fix that.I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

[irisheyes81]

What do you mean by "emotional orphan" exactly?

I've come to the conclusion I'm not meant to sleep through the night...I realized that when dd #1 was born. :) Honestly, if my DH wakes up multiple times during the night, so do I...and if he really can't sleep, I'll get up with him till he can. Just as much as when my girls wake up during the night, I get up with them too. Again, no sleep for mommy. Have you considered maybe putting baby's crib in the room with you, close by so you can comfort her until she goes to sleep w/o her actually being in bed with you? I know my dd# had to have me with her to fall asleep. She would even open her eyes just a crack to make sure I hadn't left her before she fell asleep. She just really needed the contact to get to sleep.

[Amy_G_]

MOST 6 months olds have begun teething and it lasts for months/years. My oldest has been getting in new teeth and he can attest to the fact that teething hurts. He usually needs a motrin to help him sleep--and he's 12 btw.

So don't rule that out as an issue. Is she slobbering a lot, have bright pink or swollen looking gums, putting everything into her mouth to chew or suck on?

10 minutes is too long for babies to cry unattended. I could understand starting at a minute or two and working your way up, but to drastically change from immediate attention, to ignoring cries for 10 minutes?

Understand that babies this age do not have the mental ability to understand object permanence. Some do, but most don't. so if you show them a toy and then put it behind your back, they may cry, but they won't reach behind you to get it. out of sight, out of mind.

To apply this to sleeping, if you are out of their sight, they do not realize that you still exist. And a baby that is alone, is pre-programmed by eons of evolution to cry out for help--because a baby on their own is prey to all sorts of dangers. Your baby is doing what their instincts tell them to do. Short circuiting that is not the way to help baby to sleep thru the night.

As for the 5 year old. I'm not sure I understand what an emotional orphan means?

[HummingBird]

I'm not a fan of CIO but I'm also not a fan of being up all night and miserable the next day with my family and making numerous mistakes at work. You did say you were able to soothe your baby, you didn't just shut the door and call it a night.

At our four month check up I had a discussion w/the pedi, he brought up b/c I looked like death warmed over. I told him ds was still getting up every two hours sometimes more to nurse. His immidiate answer was night wean. (I love our pedi, no solids until 6 months, never once suggested supplementing even with the jaundice) The boy was 18 pounds, plenty big enough to make longer stretches and he would during the day. So, we started the only nursing a 10 minutes, cut to 8 to 6 to 4 to none. A few times he would cry and fuss but I soothed him and he would put himself to sleep.

Sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Now, only a few weeks later, he's sleeping until 5am, nurses for a quick snack, then sleeps again until 7 or 8. All parties are happier. I honestly see a difference in his personality now that he's sleeping longer at night too.

I'm sure when your baby was crying it wasn't 10 minutes, those situations seem longer then they really are. And you even said you didn't abandon your baby.

You did what you needed to do get through the survial stage. Heck, ds cries much more the dd ever did at four months. There's times where I'm occupied w/dd and he just has to fuss and cry for a few minutes till I can get there, does that make me a horrible mother?

[Nipple_nectar]

Well, I guess Irish eyes beat me to the punch, if your five year old is by definition~ an emotional orphan, you need some professional intervention today.

That's just my opinion though, if my five year old were an emotional orphan, I would consider that a crisis.

[Amy_G_]

I would NOT night wean a 4 month old!
Geez, that's a recipe for early weaning from the breast.
MOST babies can't go that long at night that early in life, even at 18 whole pounds.
some pediatricians are really big on giving sleep advice, but most pediatricians are experts on HEALTH not necessarily PARENTING.

[Nipple_nectar]

A few minutes certainly does not make you a horrible mother, Hummingbird.

Three minutes and ten minutes is a world of difference to a baby with no sense of time.

[Nipple_nectar]

Exactly, Amy G. How do you expect your baby to manage a growth spurt when you are denying him access to the breast?

I agree it is awfully inconvenient for babies to do this during our sleep but it has been going on since the dawn of man.

[HummingBird]

A few minutes certainly does not make you a horrible mother, Hummingbird.

Three minutes and ten minutes is a world of difference to a baby with no sense of time.


But do you really think it was 10 minutes? I know just a few minutes in our house feels like forever. And when ds is fussing in his crib, I'll say I'll go up in five minutes if he hasn't settled and I'm there b/f that it felt like five.

I also love when he's crying but he's still asleep, I've fallen for that a bunch of times too.

[Amy_G_]

Exactly, Amy G. How do you expect your baby to manage a growth spurt when you are denying him access to the breast?

I agree it is awfully inconvenient for babies to do this during our sleep but it has been going on since the dawn of man.

http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/sleep/4mo-sleep.html

[HummingBird]

Exactly, Amy G. How do you expect your baby to manage a growth spurt when you are denying him access to the breast?

I agree it is awfully inconvenient for babies to do this during our sleep but it has been going on since the dawn of man.

Growth spurt, teething, not feeling well exceptions have been made. He was not feeling so good this week and I slept with him and babied him more. But IMO, when he could sleep 4-5 hours during the day and not at night, it was my judgement that he could at night.

I am spoiled b/c dd at this age was going to bed at 7pm and getting up at 7am. She's never once been affected by teething or sickness, she opts to sleep through them.

[Psyche]

But do you really think it was 10 minutes? I know just a few minutes in our house feels like forever. And when ds is fussing in his crib, I'll say I'll go up in five minutes if he hasn't settled and I'm there b/f that it felt like five.

I also love when he's crying but he's still asleep, I've fallen for that a bunch of times too.


If she says ten minutes, I'm not going to tell her she's lying. Ferberizers watch the clock.

Modified CIO and conscious (as in doing it intentionally and not by default for meeting the immediate needs of another child or being stuck in the bathroom, etc) is emotional abandonment for an infant.

I'm sorry I'm being harsh about this, but I feel more passionately about CIO than I do bf. And I hate to see this touted as positive parenting technique.

[Nipple_nectar]

I have always thought Ferberizing=CIO=bad idea. However, over the past month or two, the sleep situation in our house has brought us to the brink of disaster. My depression is coming back after a long remission, my husband is getting in trouble at work for being out so much and not being his usual competent self when he is there, and our five year old is an emotional orphan.

Claire (almost 6mo) was getting up every 90 minutes or so all night, and nursing more and more often. I don't think it was a growth spurt, as her daytime nursing has not increased. Now, I know for a lot of people the answer to such a situation is cosleeping, and I think that is great. It just doesn't work for us due to comfort (I don't really sleep, just doze, when she's with me), risk factors (obesity, sleep disorders), and DH not endorsing the idea.

So in desperation, I bought Ferber's book. I wanted to read and research and see what I thought. To my surprise, he doesn't advocate CIO, as I think of it. To me that means that you put the baby in a crib with the goal of having them cry themselves into exhaustion, until they give up trying to get you to come and accept being left each night. Ferber, on the other hand, advocates changing the child's sleep associations (having them fall asleep in the same conditions they will encounter when they briefly wake at night). And he offers suggestions on how to cope with your child crying because they aren't used to that. The goal is to help your child become accustomed to new circumstances of falling asleep.

And the biggest thing for me is that you do NOT abandon your baby. You are "allowed" to do anything you like to comfort and calm your baby, as long as you aren't putting them to sleep doing it. So we tried it - we didn't have Claire fall asleep in our arms, sucking on a pacifier, but put her down in her crib. But when she got upset, we would yes, give her a few minutes to see if she would settle, but then go in, pick her up, pat her back, give her the pacifier, and so on. We just made sure to put her back into the crib while she was still awake.

Yes, she cried. But never for more than ten minutes without being comforted. Which is more than I can say of some car trips we've taken. If I felt there was an alternative that would have rescued us from the horrible situation without any crying, I would have done it. But No Cry Sleep Solution had not worked, and the distress it caused her was no worse than getting her vaccinated, or heck, putting her clothes on, which she also hates and just has to endure. All things being equal, she is much better off having had a rough couple nights, with parental support, than she would be with an unemployed dad and a crazy mom.

So I just wanted to share, because I had some wrong ideas about this method, and I now feel that it is a reasonable option in the sleep-problem toolbox for parents.

The OP said never for more than ten minutes.

[Psyche]

Growth spurt, teething, not feeling well exceptions have been made. He was not feeling so good this week and I slept with him and babied him more. But IMO, when he could sleep 4-5 hours during the day and not at night, it was my judgement that he could at night.

I am spoiled b/c dd at this age was going to bed at 7pm and getting up at 7am. She's never once been affected by teething or sickness, she opts to sleep through them.


Different personalities. Just because one baby doesn't need something doesn't mean the next one doesn't. Babies are individuals and need to be responded to based on their individuality.

[Nipple_nectar]

If she says ten minutes, I'm not going to tell her she's lying. Ferberizers watch the clock.

Modified CIO and conscious (as in doing it intentionally and not by default for meeting the immediate needs of another child or being stuck in the bathroom, etc) is emotional abandonment for an infant.

I'm sorry I'm being harsh about this, but I feel more passionately about CIO than I do bf. And I hate to see this touted as positive parenting technique.


Exactly.

[HummingBird]

http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/sleep/4mo-sleep.html

Thanks for the link. It does make sense. I feel my mommy insicts (sp?) kick in when somethings up and I do break the rules.

Last week I had to wake both kids up and pick up dh at the airport at 2am b/c of Dolly and his flight was messed up. He couldn't expense the cab which is a lot to our house - and ds was freaking out b/f and after, I nursed him.

I am more a 'rule' breaker, dh is a the one that will suggest and has left him CIO when I'm not here. Which why girls night will now be after ds is asleep and I'm not even sold on the idea then. I've shown him the links and he laughed at it- I was so pissed.

[Amy_G_]

http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/sleep/sleep.html#maximize

[ChristineLynne]

http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/bonding/connection.html

Thanks for the citation. However, I wouldn't say that there is good evidence there that Ferberizing causes lasting or significant emotional damage. The one study they cite on the point was a study of a mere 26 dyads, and the summary states, "Results show that consistency and promptness of maternal response was associated with decline in frequency and duration of infant crying. By the end of the 1st yr. individual differences in crying reflected the history of maternal responsiveness rather than constitutional differences in infant irritability." So yes, there was a relationship between responsiveness and later crying behavior, but it's unclear what the measure of responsiveness was. I will try to find the whole article, but I doubt that 1-2 evenings of extra crying, in the context of general responsiveness, is what they are talking about when they are looking at less-responsive mothers. I will have to read more.
Does Ferber provide studies that his technique DOESN"T provide psychological harm? Or are you will to take his word on it? I have not seen any studies showing either side is right and the other is wrong. I am willing to go on his expertise plus my intuition and cost-benefit analysis as best I can perform it.

[ChristineLynne]

What do you mean by "emotional orphan" exactly?It is my slightly hyperbolic way of saying that DH's and my emotional resources are running incredibly low, so we are having trouble giving enough attention to our older one. She is taken care of, but would benefit from more cheerful, engaged parents and less TV-watching.

I've come to the conclusion I'm not meant to sleep through the night...Yeah, me neither. I still have been and plan on getting up at least once with the baby at night. (Even with no kids I had to get up once to pee!) And yeah, we actually have a bed in her room, and DH and I have been switching off sleeping on that.

[ChristineLynne]

10 minutes is too long for babies to cry unattended. I could understand starting at a minute or two and working your way up, but to drastically change from immediate attention, to ignoring cries for 10 minutes?We started with one minute, and increased gradually to a maximum of 10. We only had to wait for 10 minutes a few times on one night. That is about where my personal comfort level with her is right now. After two nights of this new approach, she may fuss and cry slightly for a minute or two, then falls asleep.

[Amy_G_]

from what I understand you should increase the minutes over the course of days. so today you go in at 1 minute, and then 2 minutes, and then maybe 3 or 4 minutes to sooth. then tomorrow you start at maybe 2 minutes, 3 minutes and 5 minutes. not going from 1-10 in the same night.

Babies have NO concept of time. that's what makes 10 minutes so unbearable in my honest opinion. even attending to my oldest son (m boys are 4 years apart) never meant my baby was crying for 10 minutes.

[ChristineLynne]

Modified CIO and conscious (as in doing it intentionally and not by default for meeting the immediate needs of another child or being stuck in the bathroom, etc) is emotional abandonment for an infant. Are you saying that it is a different experience for the infant, or that the baby has the same experience, but in your opinion attending to a sibling is an acceptable reason to inflict it, while attending to your own sleep needs is not?

I'm sorry I'm being harsh about this, but I feel more passionately about CIO than I do bf. And I hate to see this touted as positive parenting technique.I can take it. You won't make me feel bad about my decision. If you have objective evidence that it is harmful, I will not do it again, but if it's a difference in philosophy, hey, that doesn't bother me.

[Amy_G_]

emotinal resources are running low = you have a 5 year old that is an emotional orphan.

I don't get it.

When baby sleeps, you do something with the 5 year old.
when baby nurses, you sit on the couch and read to your 5 year old.
when dh gets home, he takes 5 year old out and rides bikes or something, then you switch and you take the 5 year old and do something and dad comforts the baby.
If it's THAT BAD, you need more than baby to sleep better at night, you need to call in for friends, family and coworkers to do some baby care and do special things with the 5 year old.

[Amy_G_]

when baby sleeps, mom sleeps, and 5 year old either naps, or hangs out in bed with mom and "reads."

You must have objective scientific evidence to even consider that CIO is harmful? You have NO mommy instincts that say this is an "off" way to treat your 6 month old?

[ChristineLynne]

Babies have NO concept of time. that's what makes 10 minutes so unbearable in my honest opinion. even attending to my oldest son (m boys are 4 years apart) never meant my baby was crying for 10 minutes.If babies have NO concept of time, how is one minute better than ten?

As for my 5yo, well, if you are able to be equally cheerful, engaged, patient, kind, and interested, and able to provide activities and enrichment, regardless of your level of sleep deprivation, bully for you. It is not true for me. We do have friends and family helping, thank goodness.

[Amy_G_]

a minute or two doesn't raise baby's blood pressure, pulse, respiration as high as 10 minutes of screaming does. basic physiology.

[Amy_G_]

I will have to say I'm jealous that you have help from friends and family. I never did, and my dh worked out of the country when my kids were babes.

I coslept with my babies, however co-sleeping doesn't just mean sleeping in the same bed, it can mean crib in your room, or crib pulled up in side-car fashion to the side of your bed.
At first, yeah, it's a bit difficult to sleep, as you hear every move they make, sighing and breathing. But them hearing YOU breathing helps to remind them to breathe and lowers incidence of SIDS (which scares the heck out of me worse than anything). And after a few weeks, most moms adjust and get much more sleep than ever before with baby in a separate room. Even if you only go into a light sleep, you'll be more rested with baby in the room than having to get up to deal with baby over and over again at night.

Tag team parenting is a wonderful thing, with one parent taking a nap, going to bed early or sleping later while the other one takes care of the kids. Unrealistic expectations of normal baby's sleep patterns will make dealing with the situation so much more difficult emotionally.

[Psyche]

Here you go again: http://askdrsears.com/html/10/handout2.asp

http://www.gymealily.org/resources_paperva7.htm

Articles backed by science abound the internet. You're wanting justification for not CIO backed by science, yet you aren't seeking science that supports it not being harmful.

[ima062002]

Please move this to the debates. I am sorry that you are so sleep deprived and I am sorry for your baby for every minute she needs to cry alone.

[ChristineLynne]

Can we get an administrator to move this? I don't think I can do it.Here you go again: http://askdrsears.com/html/10/handout2.aspThanks for the information. Reading that, I'm definitely glad that we didn't make our baby "endure many nights or weeks of crying-it-out alone," as the cited studies indicate that doing so may cause harm.
http://www.gymealily.org/resources_paperva7.htmOK, the introduction to the references in that one says, "The references below are not specifically to studies on the impact of controlled crying on infants because there are no records of such studies." The first study cited is the one used in the Mothering article.

Articles backed by science abound the internet. You're wanting justification for not CIO backed by science, yet you aren't seeking science that supports it not being harmful.Nor do I seek science that shows that eliminating TV does not cause shyness, or that reading books with my child does not increase her risk of near-sightedness. You can't prove the negative for every possible risk in each decision. Anyone asserting that these things cause harm has the burden of proof.

[irisheyes81]

I personally wouldn't do the CIO with my kids, but if you don't see a problem with it, and your children are not being neglected...that is up to you. I can get by on very little sleep, and maybe be a little grouchy, but not a nightmare to live with. If you can't do that, then you need to find something that works for you. Though, I would consider the crib next to your bed, if at all possible.

As far as moving this to the debate forum..I don't know if you've been to the debate forum before, but I wouldn't recommend it with this topic. Unless you like being insulted and yelled at for your decision to parent a different way. I like most of the people on the debate forum, but some of them seem to think insulting and name calling are good ways to debate.

[tifttu]

I think ChristineLynne could hold her own at the debate board. Actually, she seems to have to personality and intellect to have a good time over there and add to some hearty debates. Just my quick online assessment. I'm not actually going to add anything to this discussion.

[irisheyes81]

I'm sure she would do fine in the debate forum...it can be a fun board to be on. I was saying this topic would not be a good one to move over there...especially since she seems very set on what she thinks is best for her kids. This is one of those topics that usually gets out of hand, and leads to name calling.

[tifttu]

Oh topic wise I agree...ranks up there with vaccines, circs, and discipline. I do think she should check it out over there though if she hasn't already. Always good to add a new voice.

[irisheyes81]

Yes, definitely up there with those topics! :) I'm sure she would have a great time on the debate board, though...I know I enjoy it!

[Amy_G_]

The reason it should move to the debate board, is that the general board is a support board and we TRY not to debate on this board. and we are certainly debating.

[ChristineLynne]

Yes, that's why I went ahead and asked the Moderator to move it. I don't want to clutter the support board with OT stuff.

It may die a quick death in debates, if people choose to insult me rather than provide reasoned arguments, but that's fine.

I like to debate. I think it's important to periodically review even your most deeply held beliefs and check them against reality. :)

[Amy_G_]

Moderator may not move it, they don't do that much.

but you can move the discussion yourself.

post on the debate board--
your same title you posted here
same original post, except add

=> I started this on the general board but it's become a debate
{insert link to message on general board}


so I'm taking the conversation to the debate board.

[Nipple_nectar]

I did PM Sassy/Moderator to move this to the debate arena as their are plenty of women with informative scientific evidence, maybe I'll even take notes this time:)

[madelsmama]

<snip>You must have objective scientific evidence to even consider that CIO is harmful? You have NO mommy instincts that say this is an "off" way to treat your 6 month old?
This bears repeating.

Scientific evidence or not, listening to my baby cry out in distress doesn't feel right, not at all.

[Amy_G_]

Ah, sassy did move this thread to the debate board from General!

Now, it will probably die off completely! ;)

[KerryS]

a minute or two doesn't raise baby's blood pressure, pulse, respiration as high as 10 minutes of screaming does. basic physiology.

Absolutely. When I was dealing with weight loss and FTT with my 1-month-old, I was instructed by the ped to keep him RIGHT next to me and try to not let him cry at all, because the physiological response to crying was harmful to him and burned too many calories.

[xobehs]

Absolutely. When I was dealing with weight loss and FTT with my 1-month-old, I was instructed by the ped to keep him RIGHT next to me and try to not let him cry at all, because the physiological response to crying was harmful to him and burned too many calories.
Can I have your Ped's name and #? I am flying out there for ALL of our visits! Holy moly are you kidding? I am floored!

[KerryS]

Can I have your Ped's name and #? I am flying out there for ALL of our visits! Holy moly are you kidding? I am floored!

I love my ped.

[AuLait]

Modified CIO and conscious (as in doing it intentionally and not by default for meeting the immediate needs of another child or being stuck in the bathroom, etc) is emotional abandonment for an infant.


Psyche, you and I don't often disagree, but I have to on this one.

To the infant, the reason they are crying is irrelevant. Whether its because Mommy is too worn out and is letting them cry or Mommy is putting brother to bed or Mommy has to drive to the next exit, to the baby its all the same and to think differently is, IMO, just a way to make the parent feel better. If you feel leaving a baby to CIO for 10 min is bad, then leaving a baby to cry for 10 min for any reason is equally bad.

Personally I'm not a fan of doing any sort of structured sleep training until 9-12 months, minimum. At that point, a modified CIO (we never did anything longer than 5 minutes, and only for fussing, not all out screaming or crying) is, again IMO, more effective and the baby is generally able to understand that Mom and Dad come back. At least my kids did.

As someone who suffers greatly from lack of sleep and actually at risk if deprivation goes on long enough (my sleep disorders kick in full gear), I'm not willing to get on anyone who feels the need to start sleep training at 6 months. 6 weeks? I'd be all over that. 3 months, yeah, that too. 6 months, not so much. But that is just me.

Also, I believe that, in general, infants are hardier than we imagine them to be. Thinking of centuries past, certainly infants had to cry more often that we generally let them today and the human race continued and wasn't total emotional trainwrecks. So I just can't get on the bandwagon that letting a baby cry for a short length of time is the most terrible thing.

[HammBugga]

Ah, sassy did move this thread to the debate board from General!

Now, it will probably die off completely! ;)


snort

[Psyche]

I stand by what I say, Kristi. Consciously, willingly, knowingly making your child CIO IS emotional abandonment. A baby CIO b/c mom is busy wiping big brother's tushy or in the middle of making older silbling a sandwich is a different ball game on the parent's part. I firmly believe the parent needs to make haste to meet the baby's needs but its not always possible for the parent to drop whatever activity they are in the middle of right the second the baby starts crying.

[RaisingThemLeft]

I tried CIO using the Ferber book (and yes I consider it to be CIO since you are leaving the child to cry for pretty long periods of time) with my first and even though it "worked" I didn't do it again after he "relapsed" and started waking again. Even though he cried during night weaning and it was really hard, we made sure that he had dh or I with him, trying our best to soothe him. Even if the baby is still crying either way, I feel that there is a big difference from the child's perspective between being upset and being upset and alone. Using other methods where you are still in the room do work, even if they take a bit longer to work. None of my kids have started sleeping through the night until I nightweaned them as toddlers. Even now my kids will wake up and get in my bed on occasion. Being a parent is tiring. There are things you can do besides CIO to help you get more sleep.

[cc1003]

Not to derail but just out of curiosity, what is the gist of the No Cry Sleep Solution?

Prior to having ds I was recommended BabyWise. I bought it, read it, semi tried it for not even one day. The first time he cried and I let him cry for thirty seconds I just felt terrible. That was at three months I think. (I know, it was horrible but I promise it went no longer than thirty seconds.)

Now we are at nine months and he is a really bad sleeper. So what is this no cry method all about?

[Amy_G_]

earlier in this thread there are links to kellymom that have info on the no cry sleep solution. I think there is more to it than "do this one thing and all will be better." Or there had better be. because no ONE thing will help every baby get extra sleep, all babies are different.

big thing as babies get older is to establish a good, fairly drawn out nightime routine to help them transition from daytime/playtime to quiet/nighttime sleep. snack, bath, brush teeth, pj's, books, nursing, lullabye's whatever order and content works for your family. being consistent is very helpful. Most will find they have to add in a consideration for pain medicine for teething that is common in this age group as well.

[jessiehannan]

I don't let the kids CIO because they don't stay little long, and I want to enjoy their babyhood as much as I can, and it feels horribly wrong. The baby does cry occasionally, but I have DD comfort her to the best of her abilities while I finish what I am doing or get to a point where I can pause.
Maybe I am used to sleep deprivation, from sleep disorders, and maybe it is just because I accepted that fact of parenting before I gave birth the first time, but I would rather be tired than have a stressed out baby.

[Wilcox03]

I don't usually respond to such discussions as due to the fact you're usually asking to get yourself in a really hot debate over this...which I tend to not want to indulge in. But I do feel for you as I suffered from PPD (postpartum depression) with my 1st dd, and if anyone has endured this, it is a black hole which no one can understand or even sympathize with you until they've gone through that hell themselves and yes, you go for desperate measures in that state. I ended up using the CIO with my 1st dd due to the PPD. I didn't regret it and still don't. It was for the safety, sanity and well being of everyone that it be done. I was desperate, so I could have looked into other ways, but what I did is what I did and I stilll have a happy, wonderfully sweet and very smart toddler who still loves me and I don't regret it on the circumstances that I was faced with back then. I think everyone has there way of getting there kids/babies to sleep and no way is the wrong way, I believe. I think if you really want to get down to the nitty, gritty, you could trace any behavioral, mental or emotional disorder or issue down to SOMETHING. IMO, we tend to overanaylze things...we need to chill more. I honestly can't remember crying when I was 6 month let alone 2 yrs, and my parents let me CIO as a baby...and I'm a pretty laid back, easy going person with no issues. Everyone does have an opinion, and no one is wrong.

Like you said and a pp said, you didn't abandon your child!!! You came in, gave comfort when needed and helped your child through it. And until someone has been in your shoes, they have no right to say what your doing is wrong. You tried other options, they didn't work. Your child still loves you, your family is happier and you are better off as a mommy. An exhausted, not rested mommy isn't a mommy at her best ,and your family and child need a mommy whose 100% there mentally and emotionally. Do what you need to do and if it changed your view on something you were against, then good for you. I think it helps you become more open minded and less judgemental, myself.

[Amy_G_]

My generation was formula fed, had baby food at a very early age, spent a LOT of time in playpens and walkers, and CIO at night.

We are also a generation with a LOT of issues regarding our health and our mental health.

so I won't say that just cause I don't remember CIO at 6 weeks old, that it didn't harm me. I don't remember not breastfeeding or being fed cereal at a week of age mixed in a bottle of cereal, but I do have tons of allergies.

things we do as parents have a lot of repercussions, whether we realize it or not.
Many of us have been in her shoes, and we chose different things, and tried many other methods to get baby to sleep instead of leaving baby to cry.

Her choice to CIO may not be the worst thing ever, but there are a lot more choices to try FIRST. the no-cry sleep solution, the happiest baby on the block, lots of other methods for helping babies sleep that are not based on making baby cry by completely removing baby's prime comfort.

Why do people insist that little babies go from never being alone in the womb to independent sleep in such a short time? If a baby had the mental capacity of an adult, they would have a nervous breakdown at the thought of all the things grown ups expect them to learn in the first year of life. Babies already do so much at breakneck speed. why is it too much to ask that they need mom or dad or comfort in the middle of the night?

[Sunnie]

Yes, and she does not appear to be.

This is true. However, I think the car seat analogy holds - sometimes it isn't safe or even possible to pull over and comfort. But safety concerns outweigh the concern that crying for 10 minutes without comfort will cause permanent damage, so I don't climb into the back seat and take her out of her restraints. Similarly, we had reached the point when the known, documented risks of sleeplessness outweighed the possible risks of Ferberizing.

If you know of some scientific studies documenting harm to infants due to Ferber's method, I would be interested to see them. The links you provided have no such evidence.
Yes, and we have tried other techniques without success.


The carseat analogy does not hold because I assume you are still talking to and singing to your baby in attempt to soothe her, even if you can't get her out.

Alone in her crib, that isn't happening.

[Sunnie]

I would NOT night wean a 4 month old!
Geez, that's a recipe for early weaning from the breast.
MOST babies can't go that long at night that early in life, even at 18 whole pounds.
some pediatricians are really big on giving sleep advice, but most pediatricians are experts on HEALTH not necessarily PARENTING.


I'm 29 and I still can't go all night without at least a drink.

[Sunnie]

Unless you like being insulted and yelled at for your decision to parent a different way. I like most of the people on the debate forum, but some of them seem to think insulting and name calling are good ways to debate.

This is a cop out.

[cream_city]

Personally I'm not a fan of doing any sort of structured sleep training until 9-12 months, minimum. At that point, a modified CIO (we never did anything longer than 5 minutes, and only for fussing, not all out screaming or crying) is, again IMO, more effective and the baby is generally able to understand that Mom and Dad come back. At least my kids did.

As someone who suffers greatly from lack of sleep and actually at risk if deprivation goes on long enough (my sleep disorders kick in full gear), I'm not willing to get on anyone who feels the need to start sleep training at 6 months. 6 weeks? I'd be all over that. 3 months, yeah, that too. 6 months, not so much. But that is just me.

Also, I believe that, in general, infants are hardier than we imagine them to be. Thinking of centuries past, certainly infants had to cry more often that we generally let them today and the human race continued and wasn't total emotional trainwrecks. So I just can't get on the bandwagon that letting a baby cry for a short length of time is the most terrible thing.

I agree. She's said she was having trouble emotionally and her husband professionally due to the lack of sleep. Her son/family dynamic was also suffering.

It sounds as though this baby has been able to adjust -- my son at 6 months would have raised hell. I think that she's made a reasonable decision for her family as a whole.

[amyamy1973]

It sounds as though this baby has been able to adjust -- my son at 6 months would have raised hell. I think that she's made a reasonable decision for her family as a whole.


That's a good point. You have to do what works for your family and for your baby as an individual. My first could never put herself to sleep and I'm sure would've cried all night if I let her. But my new baby, Simon, puts himself to sleep all the time. He's six months and sometimes I let him cry for 5 minutes if I know he really needs to sleep. And that's usually all it takes. Just now I nursed him for a nap and he woke up when I put him down. Then he smiled at me and rolled over and went to sleep! Every baby is different, that's for sure.

[Macabe]

I know I'm coming into this discussion late, but I feel like I have to say something. I think many people took the "emotional orphan" comment way over-the-top. When parents are tired, they simply do not have the energy to engage with an older child the way they do rested. When parents are exhausted, they do what they can to get through the day, and they don't make each day count. And when people are both parents and employees, it compounds the issues. There are only a few hours in the day to interact with your children, and when you do it exhausted and feeling like a failure at work, you and your kids aren't getting much out of that. When the OP said "emotional orphan" it really rang true for me. Gabe didn't sleep more than an hour at a time for his first 15 months. It is the most unbelievably helpless feeling to be trying to help your school-aged child with math homework only to realize you've forgotten how to subtract.

Someone said risk/benefit analysis. Yes, there may be risks to letting your child cry for a few minutes unattended. But we're not talking about a FTT one month old preemie. What are the risks to having parents who can't function? It's easy to say "play with your older child during naptime" but you know damn well that when you have a first child everyone says "sleep while the baby sleeps." You get to #2 and all of a sudden you don't need that sleep? You're supposed to be able to stay up all night with a baby, and stay up all day with the older child, somehow.

And as for co-sleeping, I did that for a few months when Gabe was newborn, but it turns out that neither of us got any sleep whatsoever sleeping in the same bed.

[BeachMama]

I don't practice CIO, but I don't think it's the worst thing in the world when it's a last resort, as it is for the OP.

A friend of mine is the most 'natural' parent I know - home birth, cloth diaper, gentle parenting, all organic, vegan, child lead weaning, she's a doula, no vaccines, anti-circ, you name it! And she had to recently break down and do the CIO method for her baby, as it was to the point of the OP - everyone was sleep deprived, including the baby, mom getting depressed, other child an emotional orphan, etc.