Well, Bristol is pregnant.

[JudyJudyJudy]

trylyn5 posted this on the other thread:

http://community.adn.com/adn/node/130201

Abstinence indeed.

[cc1003]

This is just so strange.

[Hermione]

Damn, you beat me to it.

Abstinence indeed. Yep. It really works, huh?

ETA: my friend said this campaign would make a great Lifetime movie.

[Gigi]

People are taught lots of things...that doesn't mean we all adhere to them.

I don't think a teen pregnancy is any reflection on parenting or education....it's a consequence of an choice, not a failure of a teaching.

[SemperGumby]

trylyn5 posted this on the other thread:

http://community.adn.com/adn/node/130201

Abstinence indeed.

Pretty transparent, huh?

[Joyto5]

What I posted on the other thread.

There we have it! I for one am Conservative. I had sex at 13-14. No protection. I was taught to not have sex before marriage. There was nothing short of locking me in my room at night that would have stopped me. You can't really control a 17 year old.

Parents teach their children their values and then the kids have the choice to accept them or reject them. My baby sis got pregnant before she got married. My Baby brother got his GF pregnant before they got married. Not for lack of my mother teaching her children her values. I was lucky enough to not get pregnant.

I think it's great that her parents stand behind her with this. It would be so much worse if the parents disowned her for it (Which I have seen way to much of) She needs the support of her parents and the unconditional Love that a Family can provide. Her Teen Daughter went against something her parents taught her and are still willing to support her in her decisions. She could have opted for Adoption or Abortion, but chose to keep the baby.

As for Marriage. I was married at 18.. And would have been ready at 17. Every ones maturity level is different. It's not a shot gun wedding. Surely, she loves him and wants to marry him, If she didn't I'm sure she wouldn't marry him. It's not the first time something like this has happened and won't be the last!

[Justicedog]

And what I posted:

It didn't work for her, perhaps it works for others. I don't think that the pregnancy of a politician's child is proof positive that an abstinence campaign doesn't work. I'd need a larger statistical sampling, taking into accoung genetic and other factors.


Adding: I don't think that it's that impossible to stop a high schooler from having sex. Millions manage to get through high school with their virginity firmly in place. Perhaps it's extremely difficult to stop someone who is intent on having sex from doing so.

[JudyJudyJudy]

What I posted on the other thread.

There we have it! I for one am Conservative. I had sex at 13-14. No protection. I was taught to not have sex before marriage. There was nothing short of locking me in my room at night that would have stopped me. You can't really control a 17 year old.
Duh. :confused: That's the point many of us have tried to make. As do many other Republicans, Palin supports an abstinence only campaign. It's pretty sad when her own daughter is proof that her politics don't work.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Adding: I don't think that it's that impossible to stop a high schooler from having sex. Millions manage to get through high school with their virginity firmly in place. Perhaps it's extremely difficult to stop someone who is intent on having sex from doing so.
I'm not sure that "millions" is an accurate amount; in fact, I'm quite sure it isn't, but it does happen. This liberal is among those who not only made it through high school but also through college and beyond, but I still don't support an abstinence only campaign.

[Tiffers]

People are taught lots of things...that doesn't mean we all adhere to them.

I don't think a teen pregnancy is any reflection on parenting or education....it's a consequence of an choice, not a failure of a teaching.


ITA. I don't see Bristol's pregnancy as that big of a deal.

[SuperMeredith]

People are taught lots of things...that doesn't mean we all adhere to them.

I don't think a teen pregnancy is any reflection on parenting or education....it's a consequence of an choice, not a failure of a teaching.

I agree with this - to a point. I believe it's okay to teach abstinence, but I don't believe it should ever be taught without also teaching safe sex practices. I don't feel that the two have to be mutually exclusive.

I'm guessing they're still claiming that the youngest baby is, in fact, the mother's?

[Hermione]

I'm guessing they're still claiming that the youngest baby is, in fact, the mother's?

Yes. Trig is 4-5 months old and Bristol is said to be 5-7 months along. Trig will be about a year older than his nephew.

[Gigi]

Teaching abstinence doesn't mean that you don't also teach about birth control methods, IMO. It's about teaching that abstinence is the only 100% way to NOT get pregnant and to NOT get a disease.

[Indigo]

The thing about all of this for me is that it's just so strange that McCain picked her either knowing all of this or without knowing it, which seems to be what he is saying not finding it necessary to have her properly vetted. It's only been a few days and there has been one thing after another. It seems sloppy, poorly handled and frankly just really weird.

I also saw him TV going on about how she has been in elected office a long time and has tons of experience listing the PTA as experience. Does this mean something different than I think it does? How odd all of this is.

I also don't think this is conclusive evidence that Bristol is not the mother of the other baby. It's easy enough to play with dates, and this announcement could easily be a distraction technique from that. I don't really care either way, I think her actions in labor were crazy and reckless and coupled with the BIL issue and her stance on many things, I have my opinion of her. If her teen daughter has had multiple pregnancies that is a different set of concerns, but not of major consequence for me. Family values has become such a misnomer in this country.

[Joyto5]

Duh. :confused: That's the point many of us have tried to make. As do many other Republicans, Palin supports an abstinence only campaign. It's pretty sad when her own daughter is proof that her politics don't work.

It's her choice to support Abstinence only! It really IS the only way to avoid pregnancy and STD's, don't ya think? For it to work, you have to have VERY involved parents and a large communication door opened at all times!

For me, it's about agency.
You teach your child stealing is wrong, yet they go out and steal. Is it your fault?
You teach a child hitting is wrong, yet they hit. Is it your fault?
You teach your child that killing, raping, vandalism, robbery is wrong. Yet they grow up and become all/some of the above. Is it your fault?

You have to look at each situation and judge from that. In some cases.. yes.. It is your fault. The teaching wasn't followed through! Others, it was the child/adults choice to go against them. you have sex, protected or unprotected and get an STD.. Well. Wouldn't have happened if you didn't

In My case. I was raped and molested from a very young age. I was told it was wrong but no one ever told me what happened to me was wrong. I was treated as nothing so I decided I was going to go have sex by MY choice, since that part of me had already been taken away. Sadly. It's the same situations and thinking of my Siblings.

You can't say abstinence only doesn't work when in fact it does when taught right and followed through. Nothing is 100%!

[Justicedog]

For what it's worth, I agree with this:
Teaching abstinence doesn't mean that you don't also teach about birth control methods, IMO. It's about teaching that abstinence is the only 100% way to NOT get pregnant and to NOT get a disease.

[Justicedog]

The thing about all of this for me is that it's just so strange that McCain picked her either knowing all of this or without knowing it, which seems to be what he is saying not finding it necessary to have her properly vetted. It's only been a few days and there has been one thing after another. It seems sloppy, poorly handled and frankly just really weird.

I also saw him TV going on about how she has been in elected office a long time and has tons of experience listing the PTA as experience. Does this mean something different than I think it does? How odd all of this is.



I agree with this. I'm really wondering WTH McCain was thinking. Maybe he knows more than me. I don't know. It's not something I would have done.

[JudyJudyJudy]

The thing about all of this for me is that it's just so strange that McCain picked her either knowing all of this or without knowing it, which seems to be what he is saying not finding it necessary to have her properly vetted. It's only been a few days and there has been one thing after another. It seems sloppy, poorly handled and frankly just really weird.
I agree. Also, as much as the Republican party deserves it, I think it was shitty of Palin to not let them know this (assuming she didn't) until after her official nomination.

[Indigo]

Teaching abstinence doesn't mean that you don't also teach about birth control methods, IMO. It's about teaching that abstinence is the only 100% way to NOT get pregnant and to NOT get a disease.

Though for Palin and others in her group it does, hence the issue with these stories. Abstinence education alone is not enough, it doesn't work. I am not saying it shouldn't be included, but not addressing birth control is ridiculous and irresponsible. Pregnancy is one of the least concerning consequences of unprotected sex these days.

[Indigo]

For what it's worth, I agree with this:

I agree too, it's the only thing that works 100% of the time, but you can't control them and not giving them the tools to protect themselves, trying to make them unavailable won't prevent sex or disease or pregnancy.

[Gigi]

Pregnancy is one of the least concerning consequences of unprotected sex these days.


EXACTLY...and this is what is taught through our abstinence programs.

There are a lot worse things that could happen to you besides getting pregnant.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Though for Palin and others in her group it does, hence the issue with these stories.
Exactly! They believe in teaching true abstinence ONLY.

[JudyJudyJudy]

PALIN BACKED ABSTINENCE-ONLY EDUCATION (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/01/1320417.aspx)

Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?

Palin: Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support.

[Gigi]

Explicit sex-ed = a model of a penis and a condom and a demonstration of how to use/dispose of it.

Not proper. Ever.

You can talk about BC methods without being explicit. There are pictures on the inside of the dang box that show you how to use it.

[Justicedog]

I agree. Also, as much as the Republican party deserves it, I think it was shitty of Palin to not let them know this (assuming she didn't) until after her official nomination.



I agree with a portion of this. :) What was she thinking? I would imagine one of the questions of even a shortened interview process would be - is there anything in your past that could come out and kick us where the sun don't shine.

[Indigo]

PALIN BACKED ABSTINENCE-ONLY EDUCATION (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/01/1320417.aspx)

So this takes power out of educators, parents and kids hands. The fact of the matter is that kids will have sex if they really want to. Not fully educating them on their bodies and how to protect themselves does not serve anyone. It will only increase the pregnancies, and diseases.

[Indigo]

I agree with a portion of this. :) What was she thinking? I would imagine one of the questions of even a shortened interview process would be - is there anything in your past that could come out and kick us where the sun don't shine.

Exactly, I don't know who is responsible for this mess, but either McCain or Palin handled this really poorly. Perhaps both and it's only been a few days. You would think it would have been furthered buried stuff at least that came to bite them in the ass.

[joshsmom]

I want to see a full model of an "abstinence only" education program. Honestly, I tend to think it is one of the buzz phrases used to get people fired up. I went to a conservative Christian high school where we were taught health education with an unbiased standpoint. No one was shimming condoms up bananas, but I was given a thorough education about the different forms of birth controls, their pros and cons and effectiveness. Abstinence was also taught as the only way to prevent STDs and pregnancy. While I think "abstinence only" programs emphasize the importance of abstinence in avoiding teen pregnancy and STDs, I think the notion of a program that ONLY teaches abstinence day in and day out, without any mention of bc is something of a misnomer.

It's pretty sad when her own daughter is proof that her politics don't work.

So, I guess I'm proof positive that abstinence education does work. I'm just one daughter who didn't get pregnant. Oh, and in my four years of highschool we didn't have any teen pregnancies that were known. Obviously, there is no way to know for sure. Her daughter getting pregnant is anecdotal and definitely a bit ironic (?), but certainly not enough to condemn an entire way of thinking as a failure.

[FrznPolarAngel]

I think it is sad that Bristol is having to get married. I am sure this is heavily pushed by the parents. Of course none of this would ever be truthfully disclosed.

[xobehs]

I think it is sad that Bristol is having to get married. I am sure this is heavily pushed by the parents. Of course none of this would ever be truthfully disclosed.

I for one don't believe the child is PG now, but that aside...
these children very well could have decided to get married, it is not far out of bounds thinking someone raised with her families' values would do that. While I don't agree with it I will not critisize, they are certainly consistent in the view.

[Justicedog]

Exactly, I don't know who is responsible for this mess, but either McCain or Palin handled this really poorly. Perhaps both and it's only been a few days. You would think it would have been furthered buried stuff at least that came to bite them in the ass.


On the other hand, maybe this is just an indication of how far the media and political opponents are willing to go. I don't know. I do find the smuggness of those attacking Palin's position b/c of her 16 yo daughter to be in poor form.

[chickabiddy]

It's not a shot gun wedding. Surely, she loves him and wants to marry him, If she didn't I'm sure she wouldn't marry him. It's not the first time something like this has happened and won't be the last!

Yes, it is. That doesn't make it bad or wrong, but it is what it is.

[Gigi]

I for one don't believe the child is PG now, but that aside...
these children very well could have decided to get married, it is not far out of bounds thinking someone raised with her families' values would do that. While I don't agree with it I will not criticize, they are certainly consistent in the view.


Are you implying that these parents would have their teen daughter get married and fake a miscarriage to cover up for an earlier pregnancy?

This just gets higher and deeper...

[Joyto5]

Yes, it is. That doesn't make it bad or wrong, but it is what it is.

I have to disagree. Apparently, the parents have known for a while.

[xobehs]

Are you implying that these parents would have their teen daughter get married and fake a miscarriage to cover up for an earlier pregnancy?

This just gets higher and deeper...
If the shoe fits.

[Justicedog]

Are you implying that these parents would have their teen daughter get married and fake a miscarriage to cover up for an earlier pregnancy?

This just gets higher and deeper...

They're conservatives after all.

[Gigi]

Unfreakinbelievable.

[Sameach]

I think these conspiracy theories are damn near hilarious. I do enjoy not having to see the media have multiple Obamagasms every hour, though. It's nice to get a break.

[xobehs]

On the other hand, maybe this is just an indication of how far the media and political opponents are willing to go. I don't know. I do find the smuggness of those attacking Palin's position b/c of her 16 yo daughter to be in poor form.
Smug, not quite. I do find it incredibly sad. I find it PATHETIC that a political proponent of abstinence only eduction to reduce teen pregnancy is going to be a grandmother (wasn't that generous of me?) it makes me down right ANGRY.
Why angry?
Because I am the mother of a daughter. A daughter who I want to grow up to be in charge of her body, her sexuality and be fully enlightened to the options available to her before the choices are made for her.
I will continue to attack, as a woman, mother, voter and person. I will continue to hammer at an education practice that is bunk and dangerous.

[joshsmom]

But, again, how do you know her daughter wasn't using birth control?

[Joyto5]

I will continue to attack, as a woman, mother, voter and person. I will continue to hammer at an education practice that is bunk and dangerous.

And I will continue to attack, as a woman, mother and voter for the right to teach my child at home about things that should be taught at home and not by some stranger!

[Indigo]

On the other hand, maybe this is just an indication of how far the media and political opponents are willing to go. I don't know. I do find the smuggness of those attacking Palin's position b/c of her 16 yo daughter to be in poor form.


I have no problem with her daughter or her pregnancy, I feel sad for the girl, honestly. I think it's apparent that this is a huge mess that McCain would likely rather have done without and an indication that either she was really not forth coming or they did not look into her properly which seems like the case. This is not a Dem agenda to out her skeletons for this election, these were rumors of teen pregnancy and all were well discussed and floating around her in Alaska for some time. It doesn't take any extraordinary digging or going particularly far at all to make this a national discussion once she was appointed since it was already being discussed. Which is my point, why would they go ahead with this?

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

You can't say abstinence only doesn't work when in fact it does when taught right and followed through. Nothing is 100%!

Statistically abstinence-only education does not work.

[Justicedog]

How's this for a conspiracy theory?

McCain picked her, knowing all this, he wanted the libs/dems to attack this family. Palin resigns, citing that she, as a mother, won't put her daughter through the public scrutiny that the dems/libs will force them to go through b/c of their pettiness, etc. Then McCain picks who he really wanted, yet gets to say, he wanted Palin, but that the dems are so anti feminists, they will stop at nothing to bury a woman candidate, look what they've done to Hillary.

[xobehs]

How's this for a conspiracy theory?

McCain picked her, knowing all this, he wanted the libs/dems to attack this family. Palin resigns, citing that she, as a mother, won't put her daughter through the public scrutiny that the dems/libs will force them to go through b/c of their pettiness, etc. Then McCain picks who he really wanted, yet gets to say, he wanted Palin, but that the dems are so anti feminists, they will stop at nothing to bury a woman candidate, look what they've done to Hillary.
OR, both parties say something along the lines of "that is why women don't belong..."

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

On the other hand, maybe this is just an indication of how far the media and political opponents are willing to go. I don't know. I do find the smuggness of those attacking Palin's position b/c of her 16 yo daughter to be in poor form.

i don't think it's any different than rolling your eyes when a person who just filed for bankruptcy is trying to tell you how to handle your investments. If abstinence only education should work for anyone it should work for the daughter of the person who is really pushing for it.

[hidesome]

I think these conspiracy theories are damn near hilarious. I do enjoy not having to see the media have multiple Obamagasms every hour, though. It's nice to get a break.

In the end, it may just cost the bleeding hearts the election. They are guilty of the very sins that they rail against. It gets more interesting by the hour. Slowly, almost imperceptibly, the people who matter, the American voters, are turing it off and making their minds up to vote for McCain/Palin. I love it. Liberals will whine and wimper, but then it will be too late...again.

[hidesome]

i don't think it's any different than rolling your eyes when a person who just filed for bankruptcy is trying to tell you how to handle your investments. If abstinence only education should work for anyone it should work for the daughter of the person who is really pushing for it.

And who says it hasn't? Sarah Palin seems very happy about becoming a grandmother. I haven't seen anything to suggest that her daughter is coming apart at the idea either. What I have seen is a bunch of immature journalists trying like hell to spin something out of nothing. 17year old gets pregnant - International News! Not.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Well, let's see. She's an unmarried teenager. I'd say that abstinence only didn't really work for her unless this is an immaculate conception.

Not a judgement.

[joshsmom]

Well, let's see. She's an unmarried teenager. I'd say that abstinence only didn't really work for her unless this is an immaculate conception.

Not a judgement.

Again, how do "we" know she wasn't using birth control? What if this is just a prime lesson in condoms break and pills can fail you?

[Amy_G_]

How do we know that her home AND SCHOOL sex ed both taught abstinence only? I imagine home taught abstinence only, but what do the local schools teach?

[hidesome]

Well, let's see. She's an unmarried teenager. I'd say that abstinence only didn't really work for her unless this is an immaculate conception.

Not a judgement.

Who ever said "abstinence only" works 100% of the time? Perhaps the goal of such an approach is to minimize abortions. If so, I'd say it worked. Maybe the goal is to ensure that somebody only has sex with someone they intend to marry. If so, I'd say it worked. In any case, the entire issue resides within the Palin family and the family of the fiancee and they seem just fine with it. Only the left wing media seems intent in trying to manufacture something that isn't there. Their candidate will ultimately suffer for their lack of class, not Mrs. Palin.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Frankly, I don't care if she was using birth control. I don't care that she's pregnant. Again, I have no issues with teen sex or safe sex or kids knowing about contraceptive choices.

I have issues with a politician preaching about abstinence only education for (presumably) all kids when they have been unable to make that option attractive within their own family. Basically my attitude is--who are you to tell kids across the country when to do when your very own children don't even listen to you?

[Amy_G_]

one of the big arguements from some families is that even if they teach abstinence only at home, the school teaches explicit sex ed and opting out of that teaching MAY not be allowed in some school districts.

[TuetonicWillow]

I'm not a Palin fan but I do think using her teen daughter's pregnancy against her is reaching for straws.

She's pro-life. She's holding up that end of her deal by accepting her daughter's pregnancy and helping the teen any way she can. I might not be pro-life myself but it's a model of good parenting, not parental failure.


I can think of 100 ways to bash Palin. Her kid being pregnanct isn't one of them.

[SuperMeredith]

I think these conspiracy theories are damn near hilarious. I do enjoy not having to see the media have multiple Obamagasms every hour, though. It's nice to get a break.

I'm just quoting this because I love the term "Obamagasms". I'm going to find a way to squeeze that into every day conversation.

[TuetonicWillow]

Again, how do "we" know she wasn't using birth control? What if this is just a prime lesson in condoms break and pills can fail you?


Just for the sake of argument, one cannot be abstinent and need BC. Your defense is a little silly. If she were abstaining, BC failure wouldn't be an issue.
....Ya know....since she would't be having any sex. At all.

That's what abstaining is.

[Sameach]

Just for the sake of argument, one cannot be abstinent and need BC. Your defense is a little silly. If she were abstaining, BC failure wouldn't be an issue.
....Ya know....since she would't be having any sex. At all.

That's what abstaining is.

Unless she's like a shitload of teenagers I knew who would see their mother's hard-line stance as a very tempting invitation to do the exact opposite.

Just because her mother preaches abstinence only doesn't mean she is sitting in the corner of Bristol's boyfriend's bedroom when mommy and daddy are at work.

May I introduce you to Jenna Bush, Al Gore Jr., and likely many other children of national leaders who have done some pretty stupid shit.

Not every political figure's daughter is a perfect at Chelsea Clinton.

[Tiffers]

I can't believe all this hoopla is over a 17 year old girl who didn't heed her mother's advice.

[pawprint]

My only point about this whole matter is- I highly doubt Bristol really has a choice about whether or not to continue her pregnancy.

[pawprint]

I can't believe all this hoopla is over a 17 year old girl who didn't heed her mother's advice.


Only because her mother wants to make her advice my law.

[trylyn5]

My only point about this whole matter is- I highly doubt Bristol really has a choice about whether or not to continue her pregnancy.

That may or may not be true. But there are a lot of teen moms out there, including some who post on this board, who became parents and married young. They chose to keep their child. Why do you assume that this young woman would have chosen any differently?

Given her background, and the values she was raised with, I don't think she would have considered termination even if she'd been on her own.

[Earthmama]

Paw wasn't saying she would choose otherwise, but that she might not be at liberty to consider ALL the options.

[Tiffers]

Only because her mother wants to make her advice my law.


Even so, what does her daughter being pregnant have to do with it? Palin would support the abstinence campaign regardless if Bristol was pregnant or not.

Her daughter getting pregnant doesn't change anything. At most, IMO, it's an ironic coincidence.

If anything, it's obvious now that she knows that abstinence campaigns don't work 100% of the time. However, it doesn't prove that it doesn't work at all.

[pawprint]

Paw wasn't saying she would choose otherwise, but that she might not be at liberty to consider ALL the options.


Yeah that

If she were my daughter I wouldn't be encouraging her to have an abortion just because I am pro-choice. But she'd have fair and balanced information. That's the nice thing about being pro-choice actually. One actually gets a choice.

[pawprint]

Her daughter getting pregnant doesn't change anything. At most, IMO, it's an ironic coincidence.



And that's why people are talking about it.


Statistically speaking we have known abstinence only is not very successful.


Joshmom/lillegs (what is you name here? lol) I wonder if you had a slightly more liberal Christian education because of where we live. I am certain that their are places where abstinence only really means that all that is taught. (Well that and the dangers of sex.) And also, I went to public high school here and there was no shimmying banana there either. ;)

[Sputterduck]

Duh. :confused: That's the point many of us have tried to make. As do many other Republicans, Palin supports an abstinence only campaign. It's pretty sad when her own daughter is proof that her politics don't work.


Nothing is 100 percent. No version of sex-ed will prevent all pregnancies. This is 1 case. That's it. I really don't care and I hope the parents turn out to be good parents and have a lot of support from their own parents.

[Camille]

Duh. :confused: That's the point many of us have tried to make. As do many other Republicans, Palin supports an abstinence only campaign. It's pretty sad when her own daughter is proof that her politics don't work.

I agree with this.


And for some reason am disturbed by this, ""Bristol and the young man she will marry..." from the article. It almost reads like they are being forced to get married.

[Michaelrob]

What is funny to me is how conservatives are trying to use this situation to rally others. CNN's website has a story about how Evangelicals think how great it is that Bristol is pregnant and that her family is supporting her.

[pawprint]

What is funny to me is how conservatives are trying to use this situation to rally others. CNN's website has a story about how Evangelicals think how great it is that Bristol is pregnant and that her family is supporting her.

If it was a the teenage daughter of a dem they'd be lighting the torches.

[TuetonicWillow]

Unless she's like a shitload of teenagers I knew who would see their mother's hard-line stance as a very tempting invitation to do the exact opposite.

Just because her mother preaches abstinence only doesn't mean she is sitting in the corner of Bristol's boyfriend's bedroom when mommy and daddy are at work.

May I introduce you to Barbara Bush, Al Gore Jr., and likely many other children of national leaders who have done some pretty stupid shit.

Not every political figure's daughter is a perfect at Chelsea Clinton.


I really don't know why you're arguing with me. I'm more on the side of young Bristol than anyone. Truly, I don't see this teenage girl's pregnancy as evidence for or against teaching abstinence and I don't think it really reflects on her mother's politics like the media would have you believe.

I was simply pointing out how silly it is to argue that though she was practicing abstaining, her BC failed so it's just a mistake. That's niether here nor there, politically.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I want to see a full model of an "abstinence only" education program. Honestly, I tend to think it is one of the buzz phrases used to get people fired up. I went to a conservative Christian high school where we were taught health education with an unbiased standpoint. No one was shimming condoms up bananas, but I was given a thorough education about the different forms of birth controls, their pros and cons and effectiveness. Abstinence was also taught as the only way to prevent STDs and pregnancy. While I think "abstinence only" programs emphasize the importance of abstinence in avoiding teen pregnancy and STDs, I think the notion of a program that ONLY teaches abstinence day in and day out, without any mention of bc is something of a misnomer.



So, I guess I'm proof positive that abstinence education does work. I'm just one daughter who didn't get pregnant. Oh, and in my four years of highschool we didn't have any teen pregnancies that were known. Obviously, there is no way to know for sure. Her daughter getting pregnant is anecdotal and definitely a bit ironic (?), but certainly not enough to condemn an entire way of thinking as a failure.
The program you described in your school is not "abstinence only." I haven't researched this lately, but the last time I checked, the states that have the abstinence only programs have the highest teen pregnancy rates.

[TuetonicWillow]

What is funny to me is how conservatives are trying to use this situation to rally others. CNN's website has a story about how Evangelicals think how great it is that Bristol is pregnant and that her family is supporting her.


I am far, far from a conservative but I definately think it's great that a family would be supportive and caring in the event of an unexpected pregnancy. I hope that if I am faced with the same situation I also find it in my heart to be more supportive and helpful that angry or disappointed.

I think all you people are reading way too much into one kid getting pregnant. It happens everyday to all political affiliations.

Yeah, yeah, if it was the kid of a liberal the media would be all over it. Well, it the kid of a GOP.

Same difference when it comes to this feeding frenzy we call the media. And message boards, evidently.

[JudyJudyJudy]

On the other hand, maybe this is just an indication of how far the media and political opponents are willing to go. I don't know. I do find the smuggness of those attacking Palin's position b/c of her 16 yo daughter to be in poor form.
FWIW, she's 17.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Interesting information about "abstinence-only" education:

http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20041201102153-50247.pdf

Under the Bush Administration, federal support for “abstinence-only” education programs has expanded rapidly. The federal government will spend approximately $170 million on abstinence-only education programs in fiscal year 2005, more than twice the amount spent in fiscal year 2001. As a result, abstinence-only education, which promotes abstinence from sexual activity without teaching basic facts about contraception, now reaches millions of children and adolescents each year.

At the request of Rep. Henry Waxman, this report evaluates the content of the most popular abstinence-only curricula used by grantees of the largest federal abstinence initiative, SPRANS (Special Programs of Regional and National Significance Community-Based Abstinence Education). Through SPRANS, the Department of Health and Human Services provides grants to community organizations that teach abstinence-only curricula to youth. The curricula used in SPRANS and other federally funded programs are not reviewed for accuracy by the federal government.

The report finds that over 80% of the abstinence-only curricula, used by over two-thirds of SPRANS grantees in 2003, contain false, misleading, or distorted information about reproductive health. Specifically, the report finds:

• Abstinence-Only Curricula Contain False Information about the Effectiveness of Contraceptives. Many of the curricula misrepresent the effectiveness of condoms in preventing sexually transmitted diseases and pregnancy. One curriculum says that “the popular claim that ‘condoms help prevent the spread of STDs,’ is not supported bythe data”; another states that “[i]n heterosexual sex, condoms fail to prevent HIV approximately 31% of the time”; and another teaches that a pregnancy occurs one out of every seven times that couples use condoms. These erroneous statements are presented as proven scientific facts.

• Abstinence-Only Curricula Contain False Information about the Risks of Abortion. One curriculum states that 5% to 10% of women who have legal abortions will become sterile; that “[p]remature birth, a major cause of mental retardation, is increased following the abortion of a first pregnancy”; and that “[t]ubal and cervical pregnancies are increased following abortions.” In fact, these risks do not rise after the procedure used in most abortions in the United States.

• Abstinence-Only Curricula Blur Religion and Science. Many of the curricula present as scientific fact the religious view that life begins at conception. For example, one lesson states: “Conception, also known as fertilization, occurs when one sperm unites with one egg in the upper third of the fallopian tube. This is when life begins.” Another curriculum calls a 43-day-old fetus a “thinking person.”

• Abstinence-Only Curricula Treat Stereotypes about Girls and Boys as Scientific Fact. One curriculum teaches that women need “financial support,” while men need “admiration.” Another instructs: “Women gauge their happiness and judge their success on their relationships. Men’s happiness and success hinge on their accomplishments.”

• Abstinence-Only Curricula Contain Scientific Errors. In numerous instances, the abstinence-only curricula teach erroneous scientific information. One curriculum incorrectly lists exposure to sweat and tears as risk factors for HIV transmission. Another curriculum states that “twenty-four chromosomes from the mother and twenty-four chromosomes from the father join to create this new individual”; the correct number is 23.

The report finds numerous examples of these errors. Serious and pervasive problems with the accuracy of abstinence-only curricula may help explain why these programs have not been shown to protect adolescents from sexually transmitted diseases and why youth who pledge abstinence are significantly less likely to make informed choices about precautions when they do have sex.

[TuetonicWillow]

I think if it was Obama's kid and he made the same statement, the media would be praising him for being a supportive and concerned father.

And the feel-good leftists would be loving it, eating it up. "Isn't he the best? He's the best dad, look at how he supports his daughter. We love Obama!"

This is a country filled with so many lemmings...

[JudyJudyJudy]

How's this for a conspiracy theory?

McCain picked her, knowing all this, he wanted the libs/dems to attack this family. Palin resigns, citing that she, as a mother, won't put her daughter through the public scrutiny that the dems/libs will force them to go through b/c of their pettiness, etc. Then McCain picks who he really wanted, yet gets to say, he wanted Palin, but that the dems are so anti feminists, they will stop at nothing to bury a woman candidate, look what they've done to Hillary.
I thought it was more likely that Republicans were trying to prove that women are incapable of being in such a high position so that they can try to prevent H. Clinton from having a chance in the future. It's obvious that they wanted a woman in that slot, but truly this couldn't have been the best one the Republicans could find.

[pawprint]

If this was Obama's kid I'd be hiding under a rock waiting for the shit storm to begin. End of story.

And under no circumstances would I think that a 17 year old getting married because she's pregnant was a good plan. Regardless of whose child she was.

[Sputterduck]

This is a country filled with so many lemmings...

This is half the reason I can't seem to get myself involved in politics. The whole system makes me sick.

[JudyJudyJudy]

OR, both parties say something along the lines of "that is why women don't belong..."
I should have kept reading, lol. I'm still trying to catch up.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Again, how do "we" know she wasn't using birth control? What if this is just a prime lesson in condoms break and pills can fail you?
Studies have shown that youth who pledge abstinence are significantly less likely to make informed choices about precautions when they do have sex, so perhaps she was using birth control but didn't know how to use it properly.

[Sputterduck]

Studies have shown that youth who pledge abstinence are significantly less likely to make informed choices about precautions when they do have sex, so perhaps she was using birth control but didn't know how to use it properly.


Perhaps that's because they really mean not to and give in to the moment, instead of planning ahead to have sex.

Are there any statistics about how many who pledge abstinence break their pledge?

[JudyJudyJudy]

How do we know that her home AND SCHOOL sex ed both taught abstinence only? I imagine home taught abstinence only, but what do the local schools teach?
Palin, the governor of Alaska (the state where her daughter attends schools), pushes abstinence-only in her state.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Perhaps that's because they really mean not to and give in to the moment, instead of planning ahead to have sex.

Are there any statistics about how many who pledge abstinence break their pledge?
From what I recall, those who make the pledge have sex at the same rate as those who don't make such a pledge. However, as I posted before, the last time I researched this, I found that the states that teach abstinence-only have higher teenage pregnancy rates. (When I finish catching up on the thread, I'll see if I can find the stats.)

[JudyJudyJudy]

Given her background, and the values she was raised with, I don't think she would have considered termination even if she'd been on her own.
Perhaps that is true, and it very likely is, especially since the majority of teens who get pregnant don't abort regardless of the values with which they were raised. Sadly, though, I know girls who aborted because of what they had been taught and because they didn't want to disappoint their parents. I know another girl whose parents claimed to have such values, yet when she got pregnant, they told her that if she didn't abort, they'd kick her out of their house. :(

[JudyJudyJudy]

If anything, it's obvious now that she knows that abstinence campaigns don't work 100% of the time. However, it doesn't prove that it doesn't work at all.
The statistics should make it obvious that it doesn't work. If statistics don't do it for her, and her own daughter doesn't do it for her, I guess there's no damned hope for her, and she certainly has no business as VP.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I am far, far from a conservative but I definately think it's great that a family would be supportive and caring in the event of an unexpected pregnancy. I hope that if I am faced with the same situation I also find it in my heart to be more supportive and helpful that angry or disappointed.
While there are exceptions, the large majority of the people I know would be, or have been, supportive in such cases. This holds true for people across the board regardless of religion or political affiliation. I understood Michael to be bugged by the way the evangelicals act as though the Palins are being supportive because they're conservatives when the fact of the matter is that most parents help their kids in such situations.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I think if it was Obama's kid and he made the same statement, the media would be praising him for being a supportive and concerned father.
I wouldn't be. This is something I expect from parents, not something I think they should be praised for doing. That's almost up there with praising a parent for feeding or clothing his/her child.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Sputter, to answer your earlier question, I searched for and found a PDF about a study ordered by Congress in 2007. The study found that middle school students who had had abstinence-only sex ed programs were just as likely to have sex in their teen years as those who had not had abstinence-only education. By age 16, about half from both groups had had sex. Also, those from both groups also had had about the same number of partners and were the same average age the first time they had sex. I'm unable to copy and paste from the PDF, but here's the link: http://www.mathematica-mpr.com/publications/PDFs/impactabstinence.pdf

I'm all for teaching abstinence as the ONLY way to 100% prevent STDs and pregnancies, but that's not what abstinence-only education means. Also, the information given in most programs is often erroneous as I showed in the earlier article I referenced.

You might find this interesting as well:

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm?aid=2932

[frannie]

So if abstinence-only sex ed programs and BC education dont work, then what is the answer? What is it going to take to help these children to see the risk that they are putting themselfs in.

[Amy_G_]

Palin, the governor of Alaska (the state where her daughter attends schools), pushes abstinence-only in her state.

yeah I've heard that.
that seems to come from a 2006 question from a reporter asking if she'd support explicit sex ed instruction in schools, to which she said no.

but I havne't seen any evidence that she's pushed abstinence-only in her state.
nor any evidence that abstinence-only is all that alaska schools teach.

[JudyJudyJudy]

So if abstinence-only sex ed programs and BC education dont work, then what is the answer? What is it going to take to help these children to see the risk that they are putting themselfs in.
I wasn't sure whether or not the second group got BC information or not. The study just said that they didn't take part in abstinence-only education. I haven't found a study that compares abstinence-only to comprehensive education.

Also, I'm still trying to find the info I read before about abstinence-only education states having higher pregnancy rates. If that's true, that implies that even if they're having sex, the ones who had a comprehensive education are less likely to get pregnant.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Amy, I'm still looking for the info you're asking for. I did find this (and laughed) while looking:

http://eagleforumalaska.blogspot.com/2006/07/2006-gubernatorial-candidate.html

11. Are you offended by the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?
JB: No.
SP: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.

I think perhaps she needs to learn some US history while she's trying to figure out exactly what it is that the VP does every day. "lol9"

[JudyJudyJudy]

According to this chart (http://www.siecus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Page.viewPage&pageId=671&grandparentID=478&parentID=487), Alaska definitely receives funding for Federal Abstinence-Only-Until-Marriage programs, including Title V. Title V has some pretty strict guidelines which you can find here (http://www.siecus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Page.viewPage&pageId=670&grandparentID=478&parentID=487) along with the history of these programs (going all the way back to 1981).

[JudyJudyJudy]

:mad: I can't even find information on abstinence-only education without coming across things like this. If this is true, the kid had better change his mind very quickly:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/01/levi-johnston-bristol-pal_n_123089.html

[JudyJudyJudy]

This article says that the pregnancy was an "open secret" back home. Did the Republicans not know this, or did they not care?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/republican_race/2008/09/01/2008-09-01_bristol_palins_pregnancy_was_an_open_sec.html

[Sameach]

I think if it was Obama's kid and he made the same statement, the media would be praising him for being a supportive and concerned father.

And the feel-good leftists would be loving it, eating it up. "Isn't he the best? He's the best dad, look at how he supports his daughter. We love Obama!"

This is a country filled with so many lemmings...

TW, I totally agree with you. The Today Show coverage about the story this morning is so infuriating. I have seen some seriously biased "reporting" over the past Year of Obama, but what they were doing this morning is absolutely disgusting. The only positive spin that was put on this whole debacle was a 3 minute spot about how fabulous Obama's reaction to the story has been. I believe that if Obama is elected, a large portion of his success can be attributed to the free campaigning he has received from the three major networks.

And FTR, I wasn't trying to argue you on the other post--I was trying to give another reason why her being pregnant isn't necessarily an indictment of her mother.

[joshsmom]

TW, I totally agree with you. The Today Show coverage about the story this morning is so infuriating. I have seen some seriously biased "reporting" over the past Year of Obama, but what they were doing this morning is absolutely disgusting. The only positive spin that was put on this whole debacle was a 3 minute spot about how fabulous Obama's reaction to the story has been. I believe that if Obama is elected, a large portion of his success can be attributed to the free campaigning he has received from the three major networks.


A-FREAKIN-MEN. I have never been one to stomp up and down and scream media bias, however ANYONE who claims that there isn't in this election is either incredibly stupid or lying to themselves. I generally follow a combo of mainstream news and conservative talk. After watching CBS nightly news last night my head nearly exploded. The lead story behind Gustav was the EVILE republicans and their PARTIES with all their LOBBYISTS! I defy anyone to try and tell me that the democrats didn't have lobbyists at their convention.

People wonder why conservative media has such a strong following? The past several months of "mainstream" media reporting has certainly fueled me.

[TuetonicWillow]

And FTR, I wasn't trying to argue you on the other post--I was trying to give another reason why her being pregnant isn't necessarily an indictment of her mother.



Gotcha. Sometimes it's hard to get a feel for a post, you know?

[StElmosFire]

People are taught lots of things...that doesn't mean we all adhere to them.

I don't think a teen pregnancy is any reflection on parenting or education....it's a consequence of an choice, not a failure of a teaching.

I agree with this also.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

I think perhaps she needs to learn some US history while she's trying to figure out exactly what it is that the VP does every day. "lol9"

:gig: For fuck's sake. It would be funny if it wasn't scary.

[JudyJudyJudy]

:gig: For fuck's sake. It would be funny if it wasn't scary.
It is scary to think that someone so lacking in basic US history could be leading our country.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

My kids' Russian teacher has a better grasp of US history. I doubt Palin could pass the citizenship test, judging from some of the comments that she's made.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I doubt she could, either. I seriously believe that my 9yo son has a better grasp on US history than she does.

[cheryln]

My kids' Russian teacher has a better grasp of US history. I doubt Palin could pass the citizenship test, judging from some of the comments that she's made.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b78_1210432016 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b78_1210432016)

[FrznPolarAngel]

This popped up on the local craigslist.

http://anchorage.craigslist.org/med/824191646.html

[JudyJudyJudy]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b78_1210432016 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b78_1210432016)
Yep, an obviously tired Obama made a slip-up in math. As a math teacher, I've seen the same type of mistake even when people aren't tired. Having said that, even if he truly didn't know how many states there is, while it would be sad, it still wouldn't threaten my religious rights the way a person like Palin does when she makes false claims about the Founding Fathers to support religion in government.

[JudyJudyJudy]

This popped up on the local craigslist.

http://anchorage.craigslist.org/med/824191646.html
His MySpace has already been removed, but lots of sites were able to snag the info before it was. Here is the information; it's kind of sad:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0..._n_123089.html

[Sputterduck]

Well at least we know that Bristol is not Trig's mom.

Odd names. lol

[still_me]

Palin, the governor of Alaska (the state where her daughter attends schools), pushes abstinence-only in her state.


WTH does she think kids will do in Alaska? It is dark for a long period of time there. I joke, well, kinda.


I feel for Bristol. It is hard enough for a underage girl to announce to her parents, let alone the whole world, that she is expecting.

I know that Palin is all for abstinence only, but that doesn't mean her daughter is (obviously). My parents strongly believe in certain things that I don't. It doesn't mean that they failed to teach me anything. Bristol chose her own path. While I am not a huge Palin fan, I won't judge her because of this. I decide on my candidates by if I would like to have a BBQ with them or not.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Well at least we know that Bristol is not Trig's mom.
I truly hope she isn't his mother. However, it's still not impossible. Bristol may not be as far along as they're saying.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I know that Palin is all for abstinence only, but that doesn't mean her daughter is (obviously).
According to another rumor, Palin herself wasn't when she was younger, either. Unless her first son was born quite early, she was also pregnant when she got married. I truly don't understand why people like that are so convinced that the next generation will be so different. I see it often in real life, too.

[Sputterduck]

According to another rumor, Palin herself wasn't when she was younger, either. Unless her first son was born quite early, she was also pregnant when she got married. I truly don't understand why people like that are so convinced that the next generation will be so different. I see it often in real life, too.


Maybe they hope. I think we all hope that our children will not repeat our mistakes. It's not wrong to hope.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

I don't think that premarital sex is a mistake, nor do I think that having a child out of wedlock is a mistake.

My concern is whether or not Sarah Palin will respect that, should she reach the second highest office in the land. Or does she want to make sure that my kids don't make what *she* sees as mistakes?

I strongly suspect that Palin is a "the only moral abortion is my abortion" type, but hopefully I'm wrong.

[Amy_G_]

I still didn't find anything showing that Palin has pushed abstinence only in the state of Alaska while governor.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I still didn't find anything showing that Palin has pushed abstinence only in the state of Alaska while governor.
She said that she would support abstinence-only education. Alaska has received funding for abstinence-only education (and I gave a link for that earlier in the thread); there are pretty strict guidelines related to that. She supports AO ed, and her state received the funding. I'm not sure how much more you're wanting.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I strongly suspect that Palin is a "the only moral abortion is my abortion" type, but hopefully I'm wrong.
That is my concern as well. I know too many like that IRL.

[bocarioja]

It kills me that the only thing I really know about this woman is that her Dd is preggo, and Dh had a DUI. Probably my own fault, I could google, but damn, network news summs it all up so nicely for Obama fans.

If it was a male VP candidate with a preggo daughter, would his life/political choices be questioned nearly as much?

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

If he was anti-choice and pro-abstinence only education, I would have the same opinion of him as I do her.

[JudyJudyJudy]

It kills me that the only thing I really know about this woman is that her Dd is preggo, and Dh had a DUI. Probably my own fault, I could google, but damn, network news summs it all up so nicely for Obama fans.
I have found other information on her by googling, and I'm even less impressed by what I've found than I am by what's in the news. I swear I believe dh went through a more thorough investigation to get a federal clearance to work for a company that contracted with HUD than Palin went through to become a candidate for the second highest position in the country.


If it was a male VP candidate with a preggo daughter, would his life/political choices be questioned nearly as much?
If the man were a vocal supporter of abstinence-only education, then, yes, I think people would be critical of that as well.

[Justicedog]

...

I strongly suspect that Palin is a "the only moral abortion is my abortion" type, but hopefully I'm wrong.


Other than your negative attitude toward all things conservative, what makes you suspect this?

[Amy_G_]

She said that she would support abstinence-only education. Alaska has received funding for abstinence-only education (and I gave a link for that earlier in the thread); there are pretty strict guidelines related to that. She supports AO ed, and her state received the funding. I'm not sure how much more you're wanting.

I believe Abstinence only ed was in place in Alaska before she became governor.
and the only thing I could find on her stance was one interview in 2006 where she said that she does not support explicit sex education--whatever that means.

find another source that doesn't just reference the above interview.
find something that shows that she "pushed abstinence only" which is what most on talk shows and on this thread have said about her.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Amy, she answered, "Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support," to the question "Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?" Why is that so hard to understand? Eagle Forum Alaska, the group that sent out the questionnaire, is a right-wing group. I find it funny that since this has been out, the Eagle Forum has removed the answers.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Oh, and it wasn't an interview. It was a questionnaire.

[Sputterduck]

Abstinence until marriage is not necessarily abstinence only.

I am going to teach my son abstinence until marriage, but I will educate him on everything wrt stds and birth control.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Abstinence until marriage is not necessarily abstinence only.

I am going to teach my son abstinence until marriage, but I will educate him on everything wrt stds and birth control.
There was also the "instead of" part.

[Sputterduck]

There was also the "instead of" part.


What do they mean by "explicit sex-education programs"? I wouldn't want my son taught the way I was in school. It was a little too explicit. And at my ex-husband's school it was Way over the top explicit, in junior high no less.

[JudyJudyJudy]

What do they mean by "explicit sex-education programs"? I wouldn't want my son taught the way I was in school. It was a little too explicit. And at my ex-husband's school it was Way over the top explicit, in junior high no less.
The definition of "explicit" varies depending on whom you ask. Some think it means teaching anything beyond abstinence while the other extreme considers it to only be explicit if it's very graphic.

I'm curious, but when your son asks why he needs to know about STDs, what are you going to tell him?

[joshsmom]

The crux of the "a-o" issue is that so many of these terms are hot phrases and they don't really have a definitive meaning.

I went to a very conservative Christian high school. Sex ed stressed abstinence but was coupled with a frank, non-biased discussion about all forms of birth control. It was a "long time ago" and I can't remember details, but I would imagine the inference was that birth control was for marriage type thing.

Was that "a-o"? Some would suggest so because it was implied that sex was for marriage.

What the heck is "explicit sex education programs"? Is it the type of program where alternative sex acts are discussed and explained in detail (anal, oral) as a way to avoid pregnancy? Is it simply education that includes discussion on birth control because "teens are going to have sex anyway"?

It seems those on both sides of the issue use these 'hot button' phrases to fire up their base.

[Sputterduck]

The definition of "explicit" varies depending on whom you ask. Some think it means teaching anything beyond abstinence while the other extreme considers it to only be explicit if it's very graphic.

I'm curious, but when your son asks why he needs to know about STDs, what are you going to tell him?


I'll tell him it's because sexual activities can lead to certain diseases, and he needs to know about them so he can prevent them. I'll be annoyingly analytical about it.

I have been told by my last two boyfriends that I am way too analytical and fact-oriented. :o I can't help it. It's just who I am.

[JudyJudyJudy]

The crux of the "a-o" issue is that so many of these terms are hot phrases and they don't really have a definitive meaning.
Actually, to receive federal funding for "abstinence-only" education, it has to meet certain guidelines. I posted a link to that earlier in the thread.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I'll tell him it's because sexual activities can lead to certain diseases, and he needs to know about them so he can prevent them. I'll be annoyingly analytical about it.

I have been told by my last two boyfriends that I am way too analytical and fact-oriented. :o I can't help it. It's just who I am.
I'm analytical, too, so I'd come back with, "Okay, so if I'm supposed to wait until marriage, and so is my spouse, then how am I going to get a disease from sexual activities?

[Earthmama]

You could always tell him that you didn't want him getting flawed information from other sources - so it's your job to teach him everything you can and for him to feel free to ask about anything he thinks you missed.

[Amy_G_]

this is the only reference I can find.

Question: Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?

JB: We should not exclude abstinence-until-marriage education programs.

SP: Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support.

[Sputterduck]

I'm analytical, too, so I'd come back with, "Okay, so if I'm supposed to wait until marriage, and so is my spouse, then how am I going to get a disease from sexual activities?


I would say, "You won't." However, if you don't make this choice, here are the risks. And if you or your spouse cheat, here are the risks.

[Amy_G_]

so define explicit sex- education programs.
she didn't say she didn't support distribution of contraceptives, or school based clinics, did she?

[JudyJudyJudy]

so define explicit sex- education programs.
I answered that in an earlier post.


she didn't say she didn't support distribution of contraceptives, or school based clinics, did she?
By answering "yes" to the question as worded, yes, she did say that.

[Amy_G_]

not in my understanding of the English language.
She fell into the trap of answering an ambiguous question.

Now if it's BAD that Palin answered that she would not support explicit sex ed, with the implication that it means she supports only abstinence only,

then why is it not WORSE that Biden voted to give $75 million to Abstinence only education?

later he did vote to give $ to prevent unintended pregnancies, but I didn't read that bill to see if it was abstinence only or not.

At least Palin never voted to do anything about her belief that I have found.

I do have something else, but I'm enjoying reading it in another window first.

[Amy_G_]

Palin said last month that no woman should have to choose between her career, education and her child. She is pro-contraception and said she's a member of a pro-woman but anti-abortion group called Feminists for Life.

"I believe in the strength and the power of women, and the potential of every human life," she said.

http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/governor06/story/8049298p-7942233c.html

of course there is the gem
"Palin doesn't support legalizing marijuana, worrying about the message it would send to her four kids. But when it comes to cracking down on drugs, she says methamphetamines are the greater threat and should have a higher priority.

Palin said she has smoked marijuana -- remember, it was legal under state law, she said, even if illegal under U.S. law -- but says she didn't like it and doesn't smoke it now.

"I can't claim a Bill Clinton and say that I never inhaled." ;)

or
"Palin said she's not out to judge anyone and has good friends who are gay, but that she supported the 1998 constitutional amendment.

Elected officials can't defy the court when it comes to how rights are applied, she said, but she would support a ballot question that would deny benefits to homosexual couples.

"I believe that honoring the family structure is that important," Palin said. " :(

[JudyJudyJudy]

not in my understanding of the English language.
She answered, "Yes," she would support abstinence-until-marriage education INSTEAD OF the part behind it. When you answer "yes" to a question like that, you're affirming that you will support the first part and NOT the part following "instead of." Not trying to be rude, but if you're not seeing that, I don't know where you learned to understand the English language.


She fell into the trap of answering an ambiguous question.
She shouldn't have. She wasn't put on the spot. It wasn't an interview; it was a written questionnaire. She elaborated on her answer. If she meant something different, she should not have answered the question with "yes." Of course, since the group asking the question is conservative, I suspect she knew exactly what she was doing and was giving the answers she knew they wanted.


Now if it's BAD that Palin answered that she would not support explicit sex ed, with the implication that it means she supports only abstinence only,

then why is it not WORSE that Biden voted to give $75 million to Abstinence only education?
Well, first, I didn't know we were making a comparison between the two, and I haven't seen anyone say that one was "worse" than the other. I wasn't even aware that Biden had voted like this. I don't like that he voted to give such money, nor do I like that the federal government gives such money. I also don't like that so many states have accepted such money.


later he did vote to give $ to prevent unintended pregnancies,
Good.


but I didn't read that bill to see if it was abstinence only or not.
Huh? How in the hell would it be "abstinence only"? People don't have accidental pregnancies by abstaining. Obviously, unlike Palin, he does support the part behind "instead of" in the referenced question.


At least Palin never voted to do anything about her belief that I have found.
Huh again? How would she? She's never been a senator or representative, so she hasn't been in the position for such a vote.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Palin said last month that no woman should have to choose between her career, education and her child.
Unfortunately, sometimes I do think you have to make some choices.


She is pro-contraception
Good.


and said she's a member of a pro-woman but anti-abortion group called Feminists for Life.
That's almost a contradiction in terms.


Palin said she has smoked marijuana -- remember, it was legal under state law, she said, even if illegal under U.S. law -- but says she didn't like it and doesn't smoke it now.
I love how they all make excuses for why they smoked it.


"I can't claim a Bill Clinton and say that I never inhaled." ;)
Well, I guess at least she's honest there. Of course, we don't know that Bill wasn't honest, too, lol. I used to joke that I've inhaled it but never smoked it (aka I've been around it when others were smoking it and got sick from it).


"Palin said she's not out to judge anyone and has good friends who are gay, but that she supported the 1998 constitutional amendment.

Elected officials can't defy the court when it comes to how rights are applied, she said, but she would support a ballot question that would deny benefits to homosexual couples.

"I believe that honoring the family structure is that important," Palin said. " :(
With friends like that, who needs enemies? :(

[Amy_G_]

If people abstain Judy,
then they don't have unintended pregnancies, do they?
they have to have sex to have pregnancies.
so it could be just more abstinence only education--expanding it and making it more available,
or it could be more comprehensive sex education funding.
I'll try to go back and read it to see.

[Amy_G_]

according to wiki,
Biden is pro abstinence education.
who knows if that's abstinence only or abstinence in conjunction with contraceptive education and such.

[Amy_G_]

oh and the $ to prevent unintended pregnancies
is buried somewhere in the budget for 2006 and I'm sure I can find the exact wording. It was an amendment to the budget bill.
Senate Amendment 244 to Sen. Congressional Resolution 18
and then it went to the house and became part of a house bill and I lost it from there. I don't think it became part of the final bill but not sure. will look further.

[JudyJudyJudy]

according to wiki,
Biden is pro abstinence education.
who knows if that's abstinence only or abstinence in conjunction with contraceptive education and such.
According to ontheissues.org:

Senator Biden supports comprehensive and age appropriate sex education that includes science based prevention methods.
Source: 2007 HRC/LOGO debate--written questionnaire Aug 9, 2007

I read somewhere else, but I don't have the link right now, that he does support teaching abstinence but that he also believes in educating about birth control and providing contraceptives. He's pro-choice, so it wouldn't make sense for him to believe in teaching "abstinence-only."

[JudyJudyJudy]

If you want to pull out some negatives on Biden, there are plenty, so no one has to spend so much time searching. For example, he is pro-capital punishment, something to which I'm strongly opposed.

[Amy_G_]

I"m just posting as things come up.
not pro nor con for anyone actually.
none of them make me happy.

Biden and McCain have more experience
than Obama and Palin
maybe that's how the debates should line up?
;)

[JudyJudyJudy]

I"m just posting as things come up.
not pro nor con for anyone actually.
none of them make me happy.

Biden and McCain have more experience
than Obama and Palin
maybe that's how the debates should line up?
;)
I'll admit that I've thought about voting third party, but most likely I won't because my views do line up pretty closely with what Obama claims. I did vote third party in Georgia's 2002 gubernatorial election. I don't even remember the name of the guy I voted for (he was Libertarian), but I despised both the Republican and Democrat so badly that it was my way of making a statement.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Judy, I'm actually strongly considering voting Republican for our gubernatorial election. I don't like the Democratic nominee and am actually impressed with a lot of the work that Mitch Daniels has done.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

I hope these were taken before she found out she was pregnant:

http://perezhilton.com/2008-09-02-what-did-her-mom-do-wrong

[pawprint]

Oh dear. I was no angel at 17, but at least there's no photographic evidence. ;)

[xobehs]

Oh dear. I was no angel at 17, but at least there's no photographic evidence. ;)
There is plenty of mine... but they are old photos crammed in an album somewhere,LOL! it's a whole new game in the techno age. Photos aren't shared by pinning them up in lockers anymore- like the ones the seniors smeared all over theirs of my friend Jill and I at a party when we were in 7th grade.

We didn't drink. We held beers and posed for pics. Both of us were sent to alcohol counseling class at school.

[joshsmom]

I find this kind of crap so sick. While I find the underage drinking a bit disturbing, I'd venture far more teens take part in drinking than those who don't. I definitely find the potential that she drank when pregnant evidence that she is at least horribly reckless and irresponsible. While that's sad, that's not too out of character for some teens.

The Bush sisters liked to throw them back, too. We heard all about it.

Their dad is a recovered alcoholic who may or may not have used cocaine. (He couldn't really remember.)

The former president used pot. (He didn't really inhale.)

Obama admits to using drugs, including cocaine, through highschool and college.

I'm fairly certain I don't really have a point in posting all that. So, don't ask for one.

[Amy_G_]

Maybe your point is,
so what if a teenager drank a little and had a party?

I really find it rediculous that we would be gawking at it.
It's not outside the realm of normal teen behavior in our society, is it?

I don't really like the reference to cocaine use, however. that one worries me.

[joshsmom]

I don't really like the reference to cocaine use, however. that one worries me.

Whose cocaine use?

Personally, I don't find it horribly alarming that Obama used drugs in high school and college. In the same way that I wasn't alarmed that our current president is a recovered alcoholic or that Clinton didn't inhale pot in his younger years.

If any of this was going on in their lives more recently, then that would definitely be cause for concern.

[JudyJudyJudy]

You know what? I'll tell you where I fault Sarah Palin and many other parents in cases like this. I know teenagers who have some really crude pictures on their MySpaces. If someone who isn't even that close to these teens knows about the pictures, then why don't the parents? Why aren't the parents looking at the public MySpaces that can easily be found under the teens' names?

And I do hope to hell this girl wasn't pregnant when these pictures were taken. Call me a judgmental bitch, but I don't give two fucks how old someone is, if she's old enough to have a baby, then she's old enough not to party it up while pregnant.

[pawprint]

I'm not freaking out about the drinking (if she wasn't pg at the time.) I'm still always surprised when people don't realize that everything one puts on the internet is fair game. If I were a politician (and I'm glad I'm not) I'd be very unhappy if I saw those pics of my child. It compounds what she did because there are lots of people that will think it reflects poorly on Palin.

I don't have a problem with Clinton, Obama or even GWB with regards to their drug use. Although I was always waiting around for someone to ask Bush if he though his long history of alcohol use affected his permanent judgment. ;)

And fwiw, I've drank my share of booze and did my share of cocaine in my day. I can't imagine not remembering it. :p Of course, they say they had better coke back then.

[QuiltyConscience]

You know what? I'll tell you where I fault Sarah Palin and many other parents in cases like this. I know teenagers who have some really crude pictures on their MySpaces. If someone who isn't even that close to these teens knows about the pictures, then why don't the parents? Why aren't the parents looking at the public MySpaces that can easily be found under the teens' names?

And I do hope to hell this girl wasn't pregnant when these pictures were taken. Call me a judgmental bitch, but I don't give two fucks how old someone is, if she's old enough to have a baby, then she's old enough not to party it up while pregnant.



If parents can't stop kids from having sex, how in the world do they stop them them from posting stupidness on the internets?

[JudyJudyJudy]

If parents can't stop kids from having sex, how in the world do they stop them them from posting stupidness on the internets?
They could monitor their internet use, especially when their kids have their pictures posted under their real names on MySpace like people I know. I don't know if these pictures came off Bristol's MySpace or what, but I do know that her boyfriend had some pretty crude comments under his real name on MySpace; you're damned right that as a parent I'd know that if my daughter were dating him. I can't follow my son and his girlfriend (when it gets to that point) around and watch ever little nook and cranny they get into to stop them from having sex, but you'd better damned believe I'll be monitoring my kid's internet use as much as I can. When they have shit posted publicly under their real names, it's not even hard to do. I'll go so far as to say it's a shitty parent who doesn't attempt to do that, and in the state of GA, DFACS (CPS) agrees since they've investigated parents over their kids' MySpace pictures.

[pawprint]

My SIl has a very racy myspace (drinking, sexually explicit, drug use) and has for a year or two. (She's 17.) I am appalled by and disappointed in my IL's lack of monitoring it. Even after Dh and I made comments about it they never checked it and never made her take it down. These are wealthy, well respected, pillars of the community. They just blow it off.

[xobehs]

I have a feeling the Palin's couldn't have controlled this, all the monitoring in the world isn't going to stop "a friend" from selling out.

[JudyJudyJudy]

My SIl has a very racy myspace (drinking, sexually explicit, drug use) and has for a year or two. (She's 17.) I am appalled by and disappointed in my IL's lack of monitoring it. Even after Dh and I made comments about it they never checked it and never made her take it down. These are wealthy, well respected, pillars of the community. They just blow it off.
See; that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. If a kid posts something secretly somewhere or sends pics to someone, there's probably not a whole lot you can do about it. However, most kids I know are brave about it, and the parents could find the pics with a just a click or two. There's no doubt I'd be monitoring my kid's MySpace as well as those of his friends.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I have a feeling the Palin's couldn't have controlled this, all the monitoring in the world isn't going to stop "a friend" from selling out.
I'm not just talking about controlling these particular pictures because I don't know where Perez Hilton got them. However, I do know that her boyfriend had a public MySpace that they could definitely have known about but never bothered. As Palin said herself, a woman shouldn't have to choose between a career and children; while that's true, there are some choices that have to be made and priorities that have to be set.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I'll add that, in case it isn't clear, this rant isn't just about Palin. It's about many parents who allow this type of thing these days because they don't take the time to see what their kids are doing.

[QuiltyConscience]

All it takes is one pic posted or texted to a friend, and it's out there. As soon as it is posted publicly or even privately, someone will copy it, save it and post it someplace else. Adults do that here, and on other message boards. I am certain teens are even more likely to not think about privacy.

You can't put the shit back in the donkey.

I do agree that parents should be monitoring internet use. I monitor mine. But I think this:

I'll add that, in case it isn't clear, this rant isn't just about Palin. It's about many parents who allow this type of thing these days because they don't take the time to see what their kids are doing.

applies to kids having sex as well. By "kids" I am talking about under the age of 16. See I do think parents have the responsibility to make sure very young children don't have the time and oppurtunity to be having sex.

[JudyJudyJudy]

applies to kids having sex as well. By "kids" I am talking about under the age of 16. See I do think parents have the responsibility to make sure very young children don't have the time and oppurtunity to be having sex.
Under a certain age, yes. However, I honestly don't know where the line is drawn. Kids have had sex in school restrooms, movie theaters, etc.

[xobehs]

As Palin said herself, a woman shouldn't have to choose between a career and children; while that's true, there are some choices that have to be made and priorities that have to be set.


Public office is a bit more of a risk than a "career" KWIM?

[QuiltyConscience]

Kids access the internet in school, by cell phone, at the library, at friend's houses...

[JillyG]

for sex.
I think that while it is a parental responsibility to try to prevent them from finding such opportunities, it's not entirely possible and therefore we can't always blame the parents.
In my case, when I was a teen having sex with my boyfriend it was often in his bedroom off the living room while his parents were watching TV. They knew I was in there, and I have a feeling they knew what we were up to, but they didn't seem to care. My parents had NO idea, because they were trusting that his parents were just like them.

Under a certain age, yes. However, I honestly don't know where the line is drawn. Kids have had sex in school restrooms, movie theaters, etc.

[TuetonicWillow]

I used to think parents just had to try harder to monitor teen internet use. And teen smoking, teen sex, teen drinking, teen skipping school, teen lying about where she's going, teen running up a cell phone bill, teen failing a class she can ace, teens getting pregnant, teens wrecking car. Oh, I used to think the vast majority of this stuff was a result from poor parenting.

Now, with teens and pre-teens in my family, I know better. I don't sit on such a high horse these days.

It's really easy to say "I'll watch what he does and I'll know what he says". It's not so easy to execute it. Even very vigilant parents are sometimes shocked to find thier kids had secret MySpace pages or chat room user handles nobody knew about. It's easy to say that when your kid is still 2 or 5 or 9 or 11. It gets a little complicated after that.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Kids access the internet in school, by cell phone, at the library, at friend's houses...


I've already acknowledged that:

See; that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. If a kid posts something secretly somewhere or sends pics to someone, there's probably not a whole lot you can do about it. However, most kids I know are brave about it, and the parents could find the pics with a just a click or two. There's no doubt I'd be monitoring my kid's MySpace as well as those of his friends.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I used to think parents just had to try harder to monitor teen internet use. And teen smoking, teen sex, teen drinking, teen skipping school, teen lying about where she's going, teen running up a cell phone bill, teen failing a class she can ace, teens getting pregnant, teens wrecking car. Oh, I used to think the vast majority of this stuff was a result from poor parenting.

Now, with teens and pre-teens in my family, I know better. I don't sit on such a high horse these days.

It's really easy to say "I'll watch what he does and I'll know what he says". It's not so easy to execute it. Even very vigilant parents are sometimes shocked to find thier kids had secret MySpace pages or chat room user handles nobody knew about. It's easy to say that when your kid is still 2 or 5 or 9 or 11. It gets a little complicated after that.
So because your kid can do such things, you aren't even going to make an attempt? The point I made is that a parent should ATTEMPT and that there is no excuse in not knowing when the material is under a PUBLIC MySpace under the kid's name. Are you truly arguing against that? As for posting secretly, I've already acknowledged that, too. See my previous post.

[QuiltyConscience]

So because your kid can do such things, you aren't even going to make an attempt? The point I made is that a parent should ATTEMPT and that there is no excuse in not knowing when the material is under a PUBLIC MySpace under the kid's name. Are you truly arguing against that? As for posting secretly, I've already acknowledged that, too. See my previous post.


Where in that post do you think TW said She wouldn't even make an attempt?

Sure a parent should make an attempt to check what a teen is doing online, but it just isn't always so simple.

Again, if you can't prevent a kid from having sex, how will you keep their myspace page stupid-free?

[JudyJudyJudy]

Where in that post do you think TW said She wouldn't even make an attempt?

Sure a parent should make an attempt to check what a teen is doing online, but it just isn't always so simple.

Again, if you can't prevent a kid from having sex, how will you keep their myspace page stupid-free?
Again, unless my child has a hidden MySpace, I can and will monitor it and keep it "stupid-free" (as you say). Nothing is 100%, but I'll do my damnest, and the obvious will definitely be covered. Likewise, while I can't be on my child ever second of the day, I won't allow my teen kid to have a girlfriend in bed with him. There are attempts that can be made in both types of situations, and I'm seeing many people IRL and online who aren't even making a decent effort at monitoring their children.

If the parent of a friend of your child called you and told you about pictures on your kid's MySpace, would you do something about it? People I know IRL did not. In at least one case, the friend's parent called DFACS, and they investigated.

[TuetonicWillow]

Judy, what the hell? You know me better than that. I have keystroke loggers on Andy's computer, for crying out loud.

You KNOW I wouldn't and don't turn a blind eye to things any of ours were doing but I also know it's simply not possible to kow everything they're up to past a certain age.

...or I thought you knew I'm not like that. :(

[JudyJudyJudy]

Judy, what the hell? You know me better than that. I have keystroke loggers on Andy's computer, for crying out loud.

You KNOW I wouldn't and don't turn a blind eye to things any of ours were doing but I also know it's simply not possible to kow everything they're up to past a certain age.

...or I thought you knew I'm not like that. :(
I thought you knew me better than to be accusing me of being "on my high horse," too.

[TuetonicWillow]

I wasn't.

I have no idea why you're being so defensive. I was speaking generally. Not to you.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I wasn't.

I have no idea why you're being so defensive. I was speaking generally. Not to you.
I was the main one who made the statements about parents and supervision of kids on the internet, so it seemed to be directed at me. I stand by my statements, though. I thought I made it clear that there are exceptions and that kids can sneak around, but there are times (like your kid having a boyfriend with a public MySpace under his name) when there's no reason for you (the general you) not to know.

[freemama]

I don't really have anything to add to the discussion except that the girl drinking on perez's page doesn't look like Bristol Palin at all. The girl doesn't even resemble the pictures I saw of Bristol pre-pregnancy.

[EvilAmy]

Judy I haven't been around and have only had time to read lately.

I just can't help but ask "Are you okay?" I'm genuinely wondering.

[Still_Jecca]

Sooo late on this thread, but wanted to give my opinion...

I got pregnant when I was 17 and unwed. Was I taught "no sex before marriage"? yes. Was I a "child" that made a "mistake". Yes.

I believed in abstinance then and still do. Just b/c I am a direct result of having unmarried sex, I still believe in abstinance. And hope that my kids stay pure until their wedding day.

My point is, just b/c one makes a "mistake" (or child makes one) doesn't mean you're a hypocrite or that you can't support something that you believe in.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Jecca, you're making the point. One "mistake" is all it takes. That is why I don't support abstinence-ONLY education. Palin supports AO education yet also agreed to cut funding for teen mothers in Alaska.

[Leigh-Anne]

Jecca, what do you mean by "believe in" abstinence. If you say you believe it is a good thing, an ideal, I can respect that. If you say you believe that people should be abstinent I completely disagree. Abstinence simply does not work. The vast majority of individuals I know who were in fundamentalist churches even were sexual active before they got married. It is pure foolishness to neglect sex education because of a "belief" that abstinence is a good thing.

[joshsmom]

Abstinence simply does not work.

Well, technically, abstinence is quite effective in preventing stds and pregnancy.

[Still_Jecca]

Well, technically, abstinence is quite effective in preventing stds and pregnancy.

this.

leigh anne, yes, I believe it is "ideal" but the main reason I believe it is for religious reasons.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Jecca, you're making the point. One "mistake" is all it takes. That is why I don't support abstinence-ONLY education. Palin supports AO education yet also agreed to cut funding for teen mothers in Alaska.

So she's not pro-life, she's pro-fetus and anti-choice. It's an important distinction.

But she looks like a hot librarian so who cares?

[Joyto5]

Judy, You ARE on a "high horse"! Your going to do everything to make sure your child isn't going to be doing what you taught them not to do, and one day it's going to come back and slap you in your face! You'll climb off your horse and hopefully humble yourself some.

Those of us with older children know better then to throw around the things you've been throwing around and judging a parent for the things their child did.

Go ahead and attack me. The truth hurts, don't it! Or you could choose to take a step back and really evaluate your stance.

[CatSoup]

Sooo late on this thread, but wanted to give my opinion...

I got pregnant when I was 17 and unwed. Was I taught "no sex before marriage"? yes. Was I a "child" that made a "mistake". Yes.

I believed in abstinance then and still do. Just b/c I am a direct result of having unmarried sex, I still believe in abstinance. And hope that my kids stay pure until their wedding day.

My point is, just b/c one makes a "mistake" (or child makes one) doesn't mean you're a hypocrite or that you can't support something that you believe in.


:hug:
I hope my kids do too, but to be honest I'm not relying on it. My boys will be educated on the importance of abstinence as well as the proper use of a condom. I will be making it really clear that they are not 100% effective,only abstinence is. I would even be willing to provide the condoms myself if it means their chances of stds are decreased.
...a mom can always hope though.

I'm not commenting on the rest of the thread because I didn't read it.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Your going to do everything to make sure your child isn't going to be doing what you taught them not to do, and one day it's going to come back and slap you in your face! You'll climb off your horse and hopefully humble yourself some.

Again, I think there's a world of difference between a child making his own decisions which are contrary to what his parents would like and the parents trying to make the rules for all of us to follow when their own children aren't following those rules.

AFAIK Judy hasn't tried to take away any one else's choices on what to do with their children, nor what those children can do with their bodies.

[Bohemian]

Judy, You ARE on a "high horse"! Your going to do everything to make sure your child isn't going to be doing what you taught them not to do, and one day it's going to come back and slap you in your face! You'll climb off your horse and hopefully humble yourself some.

Those of us with older children know better then to throw around the things you've been throwing around and judging a parent for the things their child did.

Go ahead and attack me. The truth hurts, don't it! Or you could choose to take a step back and really evaluate your stance.

Wow. Judy and I have butted heads quite a bit in the past but I think this is uncalled for. I don't see how Judy is being on a high horse. We all know kids can hide stuff from adults but she is speaking about things she can monitor like a public myspace under the correct name. Besides that her whole point is that abstinence only without any sex ed isn't going to work and I agree. There is nothing wrong with teaching abstinence and I plan to do so with my daughters but AO without teaching a child how to protect themselves from STDS/pregnancy is just foolish.

I think it's pretty shitty how you're attacking her and hoping something bad happens so she'll fall off her "high horse"

[Still_Jecca]

:hug:
I hope my kids do too, but to be honest I'm not relying on it. My boys will be educated on the importance of abstinence as well as the proper use of a condom. I will be making it really clear that they are not 100% effective,only abstinence is. I would even be willing to provide the condoms myself if it means their chances of stds are decreased.
...a mom can always hope though.

I'm not commenting on the rest of the thread because I didn't read it.


:hug:

i understand what you're saying. And I have a tough issue on my hands because I didn't chose abstinence and my dd will eventually figure the math out. But that won't stop me from encouraging abstinence.

[Joyto5]

. I think it's pretty shitty how you're attacking her and hoping something bad happens so she'll fall off her "high horse"

I'm not "hoping" something will happen. It's only a matter of time. Every parent knows, (Or learns real quick) that something you warned your child NOT to do, they choose to do. Doesn't matter what the parent said/taught/warned. Curiosity and peer pressure are huge the older they get. Like I posted in my earlier post.

We teach our children not to steel, lie, cheat, hit.. do they always listen and do exactly what we teach?
We teach them, according to our moral beliefs (Or no moral beliefs), about sex, their bodies, drug use, Alcohol, consequences for their actions. It's only a matter of time before they see or hear or are co-versed into something contrary to what you taught.. And give into it. It's a fact of life, as may with older children, know.

[Joyto5]

Sasha, I don't see her making the rules for everyone or taking others choices away. I see it as making something else available. It's been stated over and over that she doesn't agree with Explicit-Sex Ed. I don't know many people who do.. Teachers don't need to teach grade school kids (10 years and under) about masturbation, homosexuality, sexual fantasies, Visual aids on how to apply a condom and diaphragm Etc etc etc...

There is a big difference when it comes to Explicit sex ed and Sex ed. She was given 2 choices when she asked the question do you support Explicit sex ed.. Or abstinence only... Of course she choose Abstinence only! It fit the better of her 2 given choices.

[Joyto5]

The things about this entire situation that really steams me, is how I get told (by Judy) that because I didn't follow Abstinence then I should see how it doesn't work. I see PLEANTY, how it does work and has worked. The situations surrounding it are very family oriented people who know what their child is doing and have wonderful opened conversations with their children. My family wasn't a family. It was a hell hole.

It's not only left to the parents. There are an entire slew of others encouraging the young people and teens to stay chased and moral. I will do my part and let my child make whatever choices they choose. Before I get slammed about teaching only AO and how I'm not informing my child of the risks if they so choose.. Got it covered.

We teach our children at home about AO. They go to Maturation classes starting very early here and we discuss what is being taught. They are then taught Sex education, which they talk about protection and also how abstinence is the ONLY way to 100% avoid ALL STD's Which they will have the rest of their lives, and can spread to anyone else they come in contact with sexually. They then come home and we again discuss what was taught and how they felt about it. (Personally, I won't teach my child about protection when I don't think they should even be sexually active. It sends a message, however small, that I'm giving them permission.)

These websites that teach AO are a Joke and they are being taken as the only form of AO out there. It's so funny how everything you guys are pulling off the Internet and reading, your taking as fact. It's one persons perspective.. and frankly, I find it a HUGE joke! It's the Internet for griefs sake! Anything can be published on it!

[JudyJudyJudy]

Judy, You ARE on a "high horse"! Your going to do everything to make sure your child isn't going to be doing what you taught them not to do, and one day it's going to come back and slap you in your face! You'll climb off your horse and hopefully humble yourself some.

Those of us with older children know better then to throw around the things you've been throwing around and judging a parent for the things their child did.

Go ahead and attack me. The truth hurts, don't it! Or you could choose to take a step back and really evaluate your stance.
LOL, I'm not sure what I'm "judging" that's going to come back on me. I acknowledge that kids can get pregnant, which is why I don't believe in teaching abstinence-only. I say that people should monitor their kids' internet access, and I feel that they should. I have a 19yo stepdaughter, and she's done everything under the sun, so I can tell you that I fully know what the older children can do. "lol9"

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

These websites that teach AO are a Joke and they are being taken as the only form of AO out there. It's so funny how everything you guys are pulling off the Internet and reading, your taking as fact. It's one persons perspective.. and frankly, I find it a HUGE joke! It's the Internet for griefs sake! Anything can be published on it!

I was brought up with AO education.

[JudyJudyJudy]

There are an entire slew of others encouraging the young people and teens to stay chased and moral.
It's the "chased" part that's the problem. ;)


These websites that teach AO are a Joke and they are being taken as the only form of AO out there. It's so funny how everything you guys are pulling off the Internet and reading, your taking as fact. It's one persons perspective.. and frankly, I find it a HUGE joke! It's the Internet for griefs sake! Anything can be published on it!
Some of the material that has been linked to is from government websites. As for experience, Georgia is an "abstinence-only" state, and we have one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Also, fwiw, her extreme pro-fetus stance *is* taking away other's choices and imposing her own will.

[Sputterduck]

Some of the material that has been linked to is from government websites. As for experience, Georgia is an "abstinence-only" state, and we have one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country.


Does that mean that they teach nothing at all about birth control? What about teaching about stds and what they do to your body? Do they teach that? I'm totally curious.

[cheryln]

Just because she supports abstinence only education (and so does John McCain) doesn't mean that they are going to change a school a curriculum. I honestly don't know much about it but I things like that are governed by individual states. And it may go the individual school districts. I think it would probably benefit everyone to know exactly if this is even an issue. John McCain has a lot of plans for public education but I don't think it involves a presidential mandate ordering schools to teach abstinence only education. Each state is different and each state teaches different things. I think it is as simple as that, but then again, I could be very wrong. I honestly don't know.

[Sputterduck]

Well, technically, abstinence is quite effective in preventing stds and pregnancy.


Yes, quite effective.

[cheryln]

I say this because Judy made a comment that this sort of thing will effect her. I'm not sure HOW it will effect anyone.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

nak

judy linked to info about schools receiving federal kickbacks for teaching ao.

[Joyto5]

Also, fwiw, her extreme pro-fetus stance *is* taking away other's choices and imposing her own will.

I don't agree with her on that. I don't think abortion should be banned. It's a womans choice. I, personally came close to one, becuase we didn't know if the baby was inside or outside the uterus. I'm not sure what her stance on it would be if the mothers life were in danger.

[still_me]

I can not get around teaching abstinence without protection. AIDS, chlamydia, gonorrhea, and herpes are a serious threat. Isn't it something like 75% of people with chlamydia don't even know they have it? Why wouldn't someone want to teach their children that things like that exist and if they do choose that path, they have to be aware of dangers out there. What if a teen/young adult believes in abstinence, but thinks they person they are with is "the one" and they end up having sex with someone who isn't "the one"? Love can be blind and the consequences can be for life.

We plan on telling our boys that abstinence is a sure fire way to avoid babies and STD's, but I have to be honest with myself and know that they will still make their own choices. My mom taught us to save ourselves for marriage, but she also let us know that if we didn't go that route to be safe.

[cheryln]

nak

judy linked to info about schools receiving federal kickbacks for teaching ao.


well, that's what I get for not keeping up.

But I still believe that those sorts of things could be dealt with through the school board. Although, I don't know of many Superintendents who were up to negotiating.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Does that mean that they teach nothing at all about birth control? What about teaching about stds and what they do to your body? Do they teach that? I'm totally curious.
IME, they touch briefly on the types of birth control (like condoms), giving rates of effectiveness. However, like a recent study showed, some of the programs are giving incorrect data on this material, apparently to try to scare the kids.

In my niece's school, nothing at all was said about oral sex. I guess this whole abstinence thing is just concerned about "technical virgins." My niece was studying for her test over this one night, and I started asking her some questions. She's in high school and had no idea that a person could get STDs from having oral sex.

[steelady]

Does that mean that they teach nothing at all about birth control? What about teaching about stds and what they do to your body? Do they teach that? I'm totally curious.


From what I know, yes.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I don't agree with her on that. I don't think abortion should be banned. It's a womans choice. I, personally came close to one, becuase we didn't know if the baby was inside or outside the uterus. I'm not sure what her stance on it would be if the mothers life were in danger.
She supports abortion if the doctors are totally sure that the woman will die if she doesn't have one. (I don't remember the exact wording.)

[Sputterduck]

IME, they touch briefly on the types of birth control (like condoms), giving rates of effectiveness. However, like a recent study showed, some of the programs are giving incorrect data on this material, apparently to try to scare the kids.

In my niece's school, nothing at all was said about oral sex. I guess this whole abstinence thing is just concerned about "technical virgins." My niece was studying for her test over this one night, and I started asking her some questions. She's in high school and had no idea that a person could get STDs from having oral sex.

That's awful!!! Kids need to know facts. They need to know the consequences of their choices. I can't understand why a school system wouldn't want to teach kids that. I mean... if they want kids to not be engaging in oral sex, why not tell them the risks?

Only concerned about technical virgins? Yikes.

[JudyJudyJudy]

John McCain has a lot of plans for public education but I don't think it involves a presidential mandate ordering schools to teach abstinence only education. Each state is different and each state teaches different things. I think it is as simple as that, but then again, I could be very wrong. I honestly don't know.
To be quite honest with you, I think McCain claims to support AO education because he thinks that's what his constituents want to hear; I don't think he truly cares one way or the other. As for his other plans for education, I disagree with them.

[JudyJudyJudy]

That's awful!!! Kids need to know facts. They need to know the consequences of their choices. I can't understand why a school system wouldn't want to teach kids that. I mean... if they want kids to not be engaging in oral sex, why not tell them the risks?

Only concerned about technical virgins? Yikes.
To be fair, that's my experience. Perhaps there are better AO programs out there, but I haven't seen them here.

[Joyto5]

She supports abortion if the doctors are totally sure that the woman will die if she doesn't have one. (I don't remember the exact wording.)

What about rape? Incest? There are HUGE emotional scars that the mother is left with in such circumstances? To carry a child that will remind her daily of what happened to her..

Off to look it up.

[JudyJudyJudy]

What about rape? Incest? There are HUGE emotional scars that the mother is left with in such circumstances? To carry a child that will remind her daily of what happened to her..

Off to look it up.
No, she does not support abortion in those cases.

[still_me]

IME, they touch briefly on the types of birth control (like condoms), giving rates of effectiveness. However, like a recent study showed, some of the programs are giving incorrect data on this material, apparently to try to scare the kids.

In my niece's school, nothing at all was said about oral sex. I guess this whole abstinence thing is just concerned about "technical virgins." My niece was studying for her test over this one night, and I started asking her some questions. She's in high school and had no idea that a person could get STDs from having oral sex.


Terrific.

[steelady]

What about rape? Incest? There are HUGE emotional scars that the mother is left with in such circumstances? To carry a child that will remind her daily of what happened to her..

Off to look it up.

If one believes the fetus is due the same rights as a breathing baby, the circumstances of its birth should be irrelevant.

The child is innocent of what happened.

FTR, I'm pro-choice because I don't want to force anyone to carry a child to term, though I wish all women would (barring physical/mental health)

[JudyJudyJudy]

I should add something else: Some of the funding for AO education does go to decent programs. However, due to its name, I think it makes schools think they are not supposed to teach anything else even if they could legally get by with it. I'm all for teaching abstinence as a part of a full comprehensive sex ed program. Also, (and I know many liberals disagree with me here), I support parents' rights to not allow their children to take part in such programs in school.

[Sputterduck]

I should add something else: Some of the funding for AO education does go to decent programs. However, due to its name, I think it makes schools think they are not supposed to teach anything else even if they could legally get by with it. I'm all for teaching abstinence as a part of a full comprehensive sex ed program. Also, (and I know many liberals disagree with me here), I support parents' rights to not allow their children to take part in such programs in school.


This is because you are a very reasonable person. :)

[Joyto5]

If one believes the fetus is due the same rights as a breathing baby, the circumstances of its birth should be irrelevant.

The child is innocent of what happened.

FTR, I'm pro-choice because I don't want to force anyone to carry a child to term, though I wish all women would (barring physical/mental health)

That's my stance on it as well.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Also, (and I know many liberals disagree with me here), I support parents' rights to not allow their children to take part in such programs in school.

I agree with you.

[xobehs]

What about rape? Incest? There are HUGE emotional scars that the mother is left with in such circumstances? To carry a child that will remind her daily of what happened to her..

Off to look it up.

It may be helpful for you to look into the Feminist For Life group that she is a part of. sceery crap.

[steelady]

It may be helpful for you to look into the Feminist For Life group that she is a part of. sceery crap.


Scary, sure.

But crap? What's crap about it? (semi-serious question)

[xobehs]

Scary, sure.

But crap? What's crap about it? (semi-serious question)
If it smells like shit it is crap, IMHO.
Have you ever seen the head of FFL debate with the head of NOW?
yikes.

[steelady]

No, but I still don't understand the reference. I would like to, but I just don't.

I poked around their website, and from what little I saw, I disagree with the position but they seem consistent. I wouldn't call it shit or crap, though.

FTR-I'm pro-choice.

[xobehs]

No, but I still don't understand the reference. I would like to, but I just don't.

I poked around their website, and from what little I saw, I disagree with the position but they seem consistent. I wouldn't call it shit or crap, though.

FTR-I'm pro-choice.
I personally could give a shit if they are consistent. I personally could give a shit if they aren't consistent. What I find completely and utterly crappy of them is when they call anyone who is pro choice NOT a feminist. I will try try try to find one of the debates on line and post- the last time I saw one was probably about a year ago? maybe a bit more?

ETA: I cannot find a video or archive of the debates. I am starting dinner service here soon so I won't have much time this evening. I will try to find some later, it might be easier to go through FFL's page and find something on their end as far as their feelings about NOW.

[Joyto5]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels the same way, Steal. I just thought it was my prego brain of mush or just not looking deep enough into it.

[steelady]

Many people have issues with NOW, that doesn't make them anti-feminist.

And the term feminism isn't static (though that would make it easier). I suspect there are some "feminists" out there who would disparage a woman who chose to carry a baby to term if the circumstances were overwhelming (against the woman) and i don't let them get to define the movement either.

And, again, FTR, I'm very pro-choice.

[Ilovemonkeys]

IME, they touch briefly on the types of birth control (like condoms), giving rates of effectiveness. However, like a recent study showed, some of the programs are giving incorrect data on this material, apparently to try to scare the kids.

In my niece's school, nothing at all was said about oral sex. I guess this whole abstinence thing is just concerned about "technical virgins." My niece was studying for her test over this one night, and I started asking her some questions. She's in high school and had no idea that a person could get STDs from having oral sex.


Our SE was abstinence based as well, but I know for a fact that we learned about STD's, their symptoms and ways they could be transmitted.
Throat Gonorrhea has been an "inside joke" amongst my friends ever since.

[JudyJudyJudy]

ILM, that's good to know. What year was that? Was it within the past 7 years?

[Tweet]

Judy, You ARE on a "high horse"! Your going to do everything to make sure your child isn't going to be doing what you taught them not to do, and one day it's going to come back and slap you in your face! You'll climb off your horse and hopefully humble yourself some.

Those of us with older children know better then to throw around the things you've been throwing around and judging a parent for the things their child did.

Go ahead and attack me. The truth hurts, don't it! Or you could choose to take a step back and really evaluate your stance.

Huh? How is she on a high horse? All she has said is that it makes no sense for a parent to not at least ATTEMPT to monitor their child's internet usage, especially checking to see if their Myspace page is public and under their own name. You don't seem to be understanding what she typed.