Her deadly wolf program

[JudyJudyJudy]

This is crazy:

http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2008/09/08/sarah_palin_wolves/index.html

[jessiehannan]

That is just SICK!!!!!!!!!!!

[Indigo]

Oh good fuck. What next!?

[zanie]

Do you all even read these articles? Suddenly you're all experts of the Moose Population of Alaska????

You're ready to prove the scientists wrong? No, of course not. You're just looking for anything to disparage the character of a political "side" of which you are not a part of. I mean, that's ok, but pick something you know a little about, at least.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Do you all even read these articles? Suddenly you're all experts of the Moose Population of Alaska????

You're ready to prove the scientists wrong? No, of course not. You're just looking for anything to disparage the character of a political "side" of which you are not a part of. I mean, that's ok, but pick something you know a little about, at least.
The better question is "Did you read the article?!"

[JudyJudyJudy]

zanie, this is what scientists are saying:

Scientists insist that the Palin administration is systematically killing wolves with an inadequate understanding of the relationship between the carnivore and hoofed animals.

[benjamima2]

The more I learn about her the better she gets...or the less I like her

[Funmommy]

I have no problem when it comes to hunting for FOOD but I don't like what I just read. :(
Unless they had a Dangerously Overpopulated wolf population I don't see where hunting would even be needed. While I don't particularly agree with Ariel hunting I can kinda understand it because of the kind of terrain that Alaska has.

I would have to see more research into what the wolf population is and HOW they're impacting the environment. I'd be more concerned with an overpopulation of wolves and the spread of rabies than I would be of the wolves hunting moose.

I just don't like what was written at all :(

[jessiehannan]

Do you all even read these articles? Suddenly you're all experts of the Moose Population of Alaska????

You're ready to prove the scientists wrong? No, of course not. You're just looking for anything to disparage the character of a political "side" of which you are not a part of. I mean, that's ok, but pick something you know a little about, at least.
No I am not an expert on the moose population of Alaska, but it is just plain wrong to tell people that is ok to get in an airplane and shoot animals just to kill them.
There are better ways to thin the population of animals, then telling people to have a free for all from an airplane. Telling people to just kill them has caused so much damage in the past, why would you even risk it again?

[Bohemian]

You're ready to prove the scientists wrong? No, of course not. You're just looking for anything to disparage the character of a political "side" of which you are not a part of. I mean, that's ok, but pick something you know a little about, at least.


This just looks ridiculous when Judy just posted what the scientists are saying regarding this issue.

The only person that looks foolish right now is you and your incorrect assumptions about the op.

[jessiehannan]

In 2007, she approved $400,000 to educate the public about the ecological success of shooting wolves and bears from the air. This is from the article. That $400,000 could have been spent on proffesional trackers and hunters, who know what they are doing. The people in the air plane have no fucking idea if the wolf they just gunned down has a litter of pups stashed some where, and is out hunting for food for them, or not. They just see a wolf and shoot it.

[zanie]

The better question is "Did you read the article?!"State officials stand by their scientific findings on predator control. "Several times over the past several years, our science has been challenged in court," says Bruce Bartley, a spokesman for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. "In every instance it has prevailed."
Am I reading it wrong? Isn't this the science that Palin is going by?

[zanie]

This just looks ridiculous when Judy just posted what the scientists are saying regarding this issue.

The only person that looks foolish right now is you and your incorrect assumptions about the op.Oh, no, hold up. I don't for one moment think Judy is foolish. I think the next two or 3 replies were foolish. I think they were just a "YEAH LOOK AT THAT PALIN, SHE IS AN IDIOT" without understanding or even READING the article.

[jessiehannan]

State officials stand by their scientific findings on predator control. "Several times over the past several years, our science has been challenged in court," says Bruce Bartley, a spokesman for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. "In every instance it has prevailed."
Am I reading it wrong? Isn't this the science that Palin is going by?

Of course she is going to pick the science that backs her opinion, and makes it easier for her to go hunt. :snort:

[zanie]

So. Who's to say who's science is right then? Hmmm? It comes right back to being a political issue, which is the point I was trying to make in the first place.

The democrats call her a big bad wolf killer because they automatically agree with the animal activists. But it seems SCIENTIFICALLY, it has been challenged in court, and in every case, the science she has been following, has prevailed.

[jessiehannan]

Thinning a animal population is a delicate business, where you have to balance overpopulation with killing off too many and risking in-breeding. I just don't think that shooting them down from an airplane is the proper way to do it.

[Amy_G_]

Alaska Game fish and game is the people responsible for the program to shoot wolves from the air. Palin didn't come up with this idea on her own, and it could have been done without her support, since the fish and game dept doesn't have to have her approval to manage wildlife in Alaska.

[Amy_G_]

I think walking around on snow covered/ thick tree forested land in alaska is not a very easy way to thin the wolf population,is it?

[zanie]

I think walking around on snow covered/ thick tree forested land in alaska is not a very easy way to thin the wolf population,is it?No, you wouldn't think.

[FrznPolarAngel]

This is a tough topic for me. I am not in favor of the aerial hunting of wolves or any other wildlife for that matter.

I will be honest and say that I am not educated enough to know the ratio population either side is proposing to see if we do have an overpopulation of any predator wildlife.

Usually, the predator wildlife stay pretty clear of the general population but the past few years, it has become a problem and that is due to their food source being short in supply.

Over the winter months, we had a big wolf problem coming into neighborhoods that are not that remote and this summer we've been hit pretty hard with bear attacks in heavily populated areas. A tough line to draw, wildlife rights to human life. I don't like it but it is a reality here. I don't have an easy solution but not in favor of killing them but if I was faced with a wild animal and my life or the life of another, I would take the animal down.

Sorry if I went off on too much of a rant... :)

[jessiehannan]

I think walking around on snow covered/ thick tree forested land in alaska is not a very easy way to thin the wolf population,is it?

Oviously it isn't impossible, people have been doing it since people have lived in Alaska, when all they did was hunt for food. Our camping gear is much better now then it was then.
I am not arguing that the population needs to be thinned, but I am arguing that gunning them down from airplanes is the best way to do it. It may be the easiest, but easy isn't always better.

[FrznPolarAngel]

Oviously it isn't impossible, people have been doing it since people have lived in Alaska, when all they did was hunt for food. Our camping gear is much better now then it was then.
I am not arguing that the population needs to be thinned, but I am arguing that gunning them down from airplanes is the best way to do it. It may be the easiest, but easy isn't always better.

Of course it is not impossible, people have been doing it forever here. Sure there are some places that you will need a boat or plane to get to, but the actual hunt? No.

[jessiehannan]

Of course it is not impossible, people have been doing it forever here. Sure there are some places that you will need a boat or plane to get to, but the actual hunt? No.

Exactly.

[zanie]

Ok, so nobody disagrees (or at least has enough information to disagree) with the actual killing of the wolves. Rather, it is the use of the airplane that is offensive?

Why? I'm asking in all seriousness... I don't see the issue.

[FrznPolarAngel]

I already stated that I do not have enough information to determine if it is the right program or not.

[Amy_G_]

I imagine that killing them from the air is much faster and effective than tracking them on foot. Regardless of how nice my camping gear is.

[Marysmom]

I imagine that killing them from the air is much faster and effective than tracking them on foot. Regardless of how nice my camping gear is.

I agree with Amy G.

What should Alaska do? Pay veterinarians to go out on foot and capture them? Then they could be euthanized and properly buried with a nice funeral?

I know, I'm sorry... that was snarky.

[FrznPolarAngel]

I'm still not convinced they need to be hunted in the first place. Meaning, I am not 100% sure that we have an overpopulation problem with the wolves.

[jessiehannan]

As for the animals that have been causing problems in town, there are non lethal solutions. Take away their food sources, and they go away. Or set live traps and relocate them. If there is an overpopulation of in some areas, then they can be relocated.
Animals shouldn't be randomly picked off by airplane, because it can shift the male to female ratio out of balance, and then cause low population or inbreeding.
If the balance between predator and prey is out of balance, with more predators then prey, then maybe they should stop hunting the prey for sport, and only hunt them for food purposes.
And if people can trek around Alaska to kill moose, then they can do it to kill a wolf.

[hidesome]

This is crazy:

http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2008/09/08/sarah_palin_wolves/index.html

The practice is not all that uncommon. In New Mexico, there have been similar bounties on coyotes, mules, horses, bears, cougars, groundhogs, and prairie dogs in my lifetime. Wolves breed quickly in the wild - it doesn't sound all that alarming to me. Then again, I have a depredation oryx hunt again next month.

[hidesome]

As for the animals that have been causing problems in town, there are non lethal solutions. Take away their food sources, and they go away. Or set live traps and relocate them. If there is an overpopulation of in some areas, then they can be relocated.
Animals shouldn't be randomly picked off by airplane, because it can shift the male to female ratio out of balance, and then cause low population or inbreeding.
If the balance between predator and prey is out of balance, with more predators then prey, then maybe they should stop hunting the prey for sport, and only hunt them for food purposes.
And if people can trek around Alaska to kill moose, then they can do it to kill a wolf.

Gosh you sound like an expert. Have you ever hunted, or for that matter trekked around Alaska in your life? Sure, the wolves will starve to death on their own - after decimating the herds of larger mammals.

[FrznPolarAngel]

Hate to sound like I may agree with hidesome but to some degree, I do.

Alaska offers great sport hunting excursions however, for many, it is the way of life. Many bush communities rely on hunting, on land and sea to feed not only their family, but the village overall.

This is why I am really torn on the wolf hunting program.

As for non lethal interventions in the city? Sure, there are plenty but if you know wildlife, particularly with the bears, they keep coming back. While I hate to see wildlife killed in the city, if they are threatening a life, lethal measures are taken.

It is no secret we have a lot of folks that do not properly dispose of their garbage and it attracts wildlife into the populated areas. A constant battle here...

[Camille]

The practice is not all that uncommon. In New Mexico, there have been similar bounties on coyotes, mules, horses, bears, cougars, groundhogs, and prairie dogs in my lifetime. Wolves breed quickly in the wild - it doesn't sound all that alarming to me. Then again, I have a depredation oryx hunt again next month.


I think the big deal is HOW they are "hunting" them, not as much the fact that they are.

To me, it's akin to sending some city slicker out to a fenced in area well-stocked with white tail, handing him a gun and dropping him off by a carrot pile. That's NOT hunting.

[Amy_G_]

nope thats not hunting,
but the program with the wolves in Alaska isn't hunting either,
it's the state lowering the population of an animal using what seems to be an effective method.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I've been researching this more, and it is quite interesting. Apparently, aside from opposing sides disagreeing on how the wolf populations should be controlled (or even if they should be controlled), one of the problems with how Palin handled the issue was that her administration was offering money for killing wolves when they didn't have the authority to do that.

All that aside, for anyone who wants more on the history, this is a very interesting article from the ADF&G Division of Wildlife Conservation on "Wolf Management in Alaska with an Historic Perspective" (http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/index.cfm?adfg=wolf.wolf_mgt). Unfortunately, it is dated March 2002. The Salon article begins talking about 2003. I wish I could find a more current article dealing with the issue since 2002. If anyone finds one from a reliable source, please post it.

*The article above is from a "pro-state of Alaska," not pro-wildlife advocates' site.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Another interesting link (you can click around on the site and find more):

Overview of Relationships Between Bears, Wolves, and Moose in Alaska (http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/management/planning/mcgrath/pred_prey.cfm?)

[jessiehannan]

Gosh you sound like an expert. Have you ever hunted, or for that matter trekked around Alaska in your life? Sure, the wolves will starve to death on their own - after decimating the herds of larger mammals.

I have hunted once. It was not in Alaska.
What would be ridiculous, is some one saying they need to go out there and trap them, then spay/nueter or give the females canine birth control and then releasing them.

Judy, yes it s the part where they are shooting them from planes that bothers me the most. I believe that if an animal is smart enough to avoid getting shot and killed, then it deserves to live. Shooting them from an airplane gives them no chance to live.

Animals that attack humans are an entirely different story though.
But if an animal must die because it is inconvient to humans, then at least them them die with more dignity then being mowed down by some one with a gun in an airplane.

[Amy_G_]

mowed down?
they aren't using machine guns.
They are taking a shot to kill the animal cleanly. the pelts are worth something, so they aren't shooting randomly.

[jessiehannan]

mowed down?
they aren't using machine guns.
They are taking a shot to kill the animal cleanly. the pelts are worth something, so they aren't shooting randomly.
I never said they used machine guns. Regardless of what kind of gun they use, or even if they a damned bow ns soem arrows, shooting from the air and doesn't give the animal a chance to live.

[EvilAmy]

So you would rather them get a crappy unclean shot that can prolong the death with more suffering? Uhm, okay.

Just asking as someone who has good equipment and has been hunting more than once.

[EvilAmy]

I don't have time to debate this morning.

ITA with
FPA
Hidesome(of course I can't help but agree with him)
AmyG

[jessiehannan]

So you would rather them get a crappy unclean shot that can prolong the death with more suffering? Uhm, okay.

Just asking as someone who has good equipment and has been hunting more than once.

My family hunts. IT is not for me. But some of the rules that we were taught are:
if you caan't kill it with one shot, then don't shoot it
if you aren't going to eat it, and if it isn't an aggressive to humans, then don't kill it.

I never mentioned using bad equipment either. Can you tell me what bad equipment you are talking about?

[Amy_G_]

I'd think using an airplane would make the finding of them in a vast area much easier,
but would make actually hitting them more difficult.
shooting a moving target from a moving airplane.
all they gotta do is zig when the airplane thinks they are gonna zag.

[EvilAmy]

Real quick before I do go.


It's a article from Salon. Big suprise Palin is shown as a horrible animal hater kill em' and leave sort add to that politically slanted far left.

DWR (Division of Wildlife Resources) and Forest service keep track of animal populations. They are also the ones that deem how best manage wildlife be it hunting, trapping how many should be killed to maintain balance etc. Also not uncommon to have bounty's to encourage hunting. It also helps track how many are killed to keep from wiping out populations. People have to turn in pelts/tails or ears to get said bounty. Again part of record keeping.

Reccomending taking away food sources is a silly thing, that means killing more moose. Isn't that why they are killing the wolves?

[EvilAmy]

So I guess you must not hunt elk or in the woods/ mountains. because while yes one shot is best, half the time it's not what happens. I really would stay but Zoey wants grub.

[EvilAmy]

And pardon me you said camping gear not equipment. Same thing in my mind just different words.

[jessiehannan]

And pardon me you said camping gear not equipment. Same thing in my mind just different words.

Ok, I thought you were referring to guns/bows there.

Camping the way I like to camp, would not work there at all.
Camping the way my mom does would.
My dad and uncles and grandfathers all hunted in the woods, and while we don't have mountains, we have hills. They were existence hunters.
If the animals actually do need to be thinned out, while it is unfortunate that they must die, it is understandable. Shooting them from an airplane goes against everything I have been taught, and the idea of it would probably give my grandpa a heart attack.

[EvilAmy]

I think it needs to be taken into consideration it's a totally different type of territory. Hunting in Alaska is even a totally different ball game than hunting in Utah. And hunting in Utah is different than back East.

[jessiehannan]

I think it needs to be taken into consideration it's a totally different type of territory. Hunting in Alaska is even a totally different ball game than hunting in Utah. And hunting in Utah is different than back East.

This is true as well. If they allowed moose to be hunted by plane, maybe I would feel a little different. As far as I can tell though, it is only wolves.

[vulturemom]

The practice is not all that uncommon. In New Mexico, there have been similar bounties on coyotes, mules, horses, bears, cougars, groundhogs, and prairie dogs in my lifetime. Wolves breed quickly in the wild - it doesn't sound all that alarming to me. Then again, I have a depredation oryx hunt again next month.

Oh, for the love of all that is good and holy please tell me that they aren't shooting groundhogs and prairie dogs from airplanes.

As long as we aren't shooting small animals from the air then I agree with the rest of what you said.

[JudyJudyJudy]

This is true as well. If they allowed moose to be hunted by plane, maybe I would feel a little different. As far as I can tell though, it is only wolves.
While it gives me a sick feeling to think about it, if you read the other articles to which I linked, it might make you see why some people think this is a good idea. It really is a difficult situation. I totally disagree with paying bounties for the wolves, though, as was being done at one point.

[jessiehannan]

While it gives me a sick feeling to think about it, if you read the other articles to which I linked, it might make you see why some people think this is a good idea. It really is a difficult situation. I totally disagree with paying bounties for the wolves, though, as was being done at one point.

The picture of the wolf hanging on the plane with blood on the snow, in the link of in the original post really upset me.
What ever they do, no one will be happy.

[Amy_G_]

Why disagree with paying bounties?
If the number of wolves needs to be reduced, why not pay a bounty in order to get more wolves killed to get them down to a manageable level? We've had bounties paid on many species of animal in our history in order to control their population.

if you are upset about aerial hunting of wolves, you'd better also get info on aerial hunting of coyotes. coyotes are one of the only species that no matter how hard human tries to wipe it off the planet, they keep growin in numbers and keep extending their range. they used to be in only a limited number of states, and now they are in every state in the union and I believe way up in canada.

Part of their success is due to lack of wolves to compete with. Wolves are non-existant in most states in the US, and it's very difficult to re-introduce wolves into an area because nobody wants wolves. wolves are larger than coyotoes and can take down much larger animals, which is very scary to think of an animal that can take down a moose.

[Amy_G_]

These are not cute cuddly dogs we are talking of. We cannot remove the wolves from human areas without taking out not only the moose, but the dogs, cats, garbage cans and all other wildlife.

I'd much rather see the wolf population controlled, even with seemingly drastic measuers in Alaska, than to see the wolf population get large enough to start interacting with humans more. When large numbers of wolves interact with humans, humans kill ALL the wolves. It's much better for the wolves to have a smaller population so they can remain more hidden in the state and still co-exist.

[Amy_G_]

this article talks of various methods of killing off coyotes that are attacking wildlife, or when a coyote population is too large.

http://texnat.tamu.edu/symposia/coyote/p32.htm

the methods listed can also be used on wolves, but some have limited effectiveness in the wilds of alaska. I don't know if you can call in wolves like you can coyotes though.

[hidesome]

this article talks of various methods of killing off coyotes that are attacking wildlife, or when a coyote population is too large.

http://texnat.tamu.edu/symposia/coyote/p32.htm

the methods listed can also be used on wolves, but some have limited effectiveness in the wilds of alaska. I don't know if you can call in wolves like you can coyotes though.

Wolves are more difficult to hunt than coyotes - especially in a place like Alaska. I'm not sure I understand what is wrong with using planes. Impact to the environment is essentially nil, effectiveness is high, cost is low. If there was such a thing as a magic button to control wolf overpopulation, bounty hunters in planes has got to be pretty darned close. I'm glad Sarah Palin is responsible enough to take a sensible position despite the fallout. That is just the sort of person I want in the White House.

[zanie]

You'd think the animal activists would actually LIKE the fact that the hunters were using planes. Seems more likely that the plane would crash (rather than just getting a frozen finger or two by foot hunting) and take them out... making the activists happy. Except for the fact that they might get a little red on the glorious snow.

That was bad, wasn't it.

[cheryln]

Wolves are more difficult to hunt than coyotes - especially in a place like Alaska. I'm not sure I understand what is wrong with using planes. Impact to the environment is essentially nil, effectiveness is high, cost is low. If there was such a thing as a magic button to control wolf overpopulation, bounty hunters in planes has got to be pretty darned close. I'm glad Sarah Palin is responsible enough to take a sensible position despite the fallout. That is just the sort of person I want in the White House.


I agree. It's a tough spot to be in and I wouldn't envy that decision.

I don't see a problem with offering a bounty, I suppose it would keep the money in the town as apposed to hiring people and spending tax dollars. I'm sure she had to weigh cost vs effectiveness vs public opinion. I don't like the idea of chasing the wolves down to exhaustion, that reminds of fox hunting and I hate that sport. But at the same time, that prevents having too possibly shoot the wolf multiple times. I would assume that people who are doing the chasing may not be great shots.

[hidesome]

I agree. It's a tough spot to be in and I wouldn't envy that decision.

I don't see a problem with offering a bounty, I suppose it would keep the money in the town as apposed to hiring people and spending tax dollars. I'm sure she had to weigh cost vs effectiveness vs public opinion. I don't like the idea of chasing the wolves down to exhaustion, that reminds of fox hunting and I hate that sport. But at the same time, that prevents having too possibly shoot the wolf multiple times. I would assume that people who are doing the chasing may not be great shots.

I think your assumption would be wrong. People who shoot animals for bounty are pretty damned good at it or they don't make any money. I have a friend who can hit a prairie dog every time at 300yrds. Not too many people can say that. I'm against fox hunting with hounds too. If it isn't fair chase, it isn't hunting.

[Firemom]

I have been donating to Deenders of wildlife for years. I have always been into the wolf reintrduction program in the lower states. They have been fighting this shooting from the air in Alaska for a while now.

I find this disturbing too.

[hidesome]

Predator stare down. These are my neighbor's wolves.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y90/hidesome/BOBMOOREELKANTLERS118.jpg

[FrznPolarAngel]

It is illegal to own wolves or wolf hybrids in Alaska. I am always amazed with how large they truly are.

[hidesome]

It is illegal to own wolves or wolf hybrids in Alaska. I am always amazed with how large they truly are.

I wish it were illegal here too. They are much bigger than people think. They are also very effective killers. These guys (previous post) kill hawks! Just for yuks, go out and try to kill a hawk while crawling around on all fours sometime. It ain't easy!

[Sputterduck]

They're so cute hidesome! Dangerous, I bet, but still very very cute.

[JudyJudyJudy]

They really are beautiful animals.

[hidesome]

They really are beautiful animals.

That picture doesn't really do them justice. Up close, they are primal. They have yellow eyes and they look right through you in a weird sort of way. They are definitely not at all like dogs. I hope they are reintroduced in the wild in New Mexico.

These two had to be separated from their brother because they attacked and nearly killed him when a coyote in heat showed up.

[pumpkinhead7]

Thinning a animal population is a delicate business, where you have to balance overpopulation with killing off too many and risking in-breeding. I just don't think that shooting them down from an airplane is the proper way to do it.


According to my husband who is a caribou/moose biologist, you are mistaken.

They do most of their wolf capture work from airplanes and helicopters. If you want to find a wolf in the wilderness, using an aircraft is the most efficient way to do it. If you're euthanizing animals for purposes of population control, if you actually want to be successful, an aircraft is the way to go.

[jessiehannan]

I have been donating to Deenders of wildlife for years. I have always been into the wolf reintrduction program in the lower states. They have been fighting this shooting from the air in Alaska for a while now.

I find this disturbing too.
One of my dear friends has devoted quite a bit of his life to saving the lives of wolves that people take as pets and can't keep. His health has gotten so bad that he can't do it any more.

[xobehs]

Hidesome, are they making noise at you? Audio would be so interesting!

[hidesome]

One of my dear friends has devoted quite a bit of his life to saving the lives of wolves that people take as pets and can't keep. His health has gotten so bad that he can't do it any more.

That's more or less how my neighbor got these wolves. They live a good life in a huge, forested pen. He seems pretty responsible about them not getting out - has dual serial access gates, high fences etc.

[xobehs]

Hidesome, are they making noise at you? Audio would be so interesting!

just reposting for attention

[jessiehannan]

That's more or less how my neighbor got these wolves. They live a good life in a huge, forested pen. He seems pretty responsible about them not getting out - has dual serial access gates, high fences etc.
I am glad some one has the ability to care for them properly.

Some I know had the brilliant idea to get a 1/2 wolf puppy when they lived in an apartment. They gaveher to some one who lived in a house, and she ate the fence. I don't know what happened to her after that. :(

[hidesome]

just reposting for attention

No, they are silent for the most part. I can hear them howl when the female coyotes hang around. I can't really figure out what their thing is with their tongues. I think it is like a nervous twitch. When I am near them, they don't seem afraid, but they do this thing where they stick out their tongue, bite it and then pull it back into their mouths. It is odd to watch.

[Sputterduck]

No, they are silent for the most part. I can hear them howl when the female coyotes hang around. I can't really figure out what their thing is with their tongues. I think it is like a nervous twitch. When I am near them, they don't seem afraid, but they do this thing where they stick out their tongue, bite it and then pull it back into their mouths. It is odd to watch.


I think maybe they think you would be tasty.

[hidesome]

I think maybe they think you would be tasty.

Yeah, I thought that too, but they don't really lick their chops like a dog and they do the same thing to each other. I think it some sort of pack dominant submissive thing that only Dr. Doolittle understands.