S/O: Addicts and Crimes

[JudyJudyJudy]

This is a spinoff from the Cindy McCain thread. I wanted to spin this off because I didn't want it to be just about Cindy McCain, but I'll give you a little background from the other thread.

Cindy's past with drugs came up in the thread. She became addicted to pain killers (Hydrocodone and Oxycodone) apparently after having back surgeries. She ended up stealing drugs from her nonprofit medical help organization. She basically committed identity theft by using other staff members' names and having a doctor write prescriptions under those names. The doctor lost his license, and she got off pretty lightly.

Anyway, overall, people seem to be compassionate for those who commit crimes due to being addicts. Here are a few comments from the other thread:

But, addicts do bad stuff.

Wow you mean to tell me Cindy acted like a typical addict?

I'm shocked and stunned.

So she used drugs. Meh, so have a lot of people.

People shared stories, and some said that what she did was wrong but understandable. Even though most are saying that they don't see it as "excuse," it still seems that way to me. (I hope I don't appear to be putting words into anyone's mouth. I'm trying to do a quick summary.)

How far does this go? Is it understandable if an addict abuses someone because he/she is high, or is it only understandable if the person commits a crime to get drugs?

Is it different if a person steals from his/her family instead of from a nonprofit organization? What about stealing from one's employer? What if the person is stealing meds that are meant for a patient (for example, like in a nursing home)?

Does it matter how or why a person became an addict?

What if the person commits armed robbery to get drugs? Murder?

Are desperate crimes by addicts seen as less severe and more forgivable than other crimes? Is it not as bad for an addict to embezzle from his/her employer or a nonprofit organization as it would be for someone who is not an addict to do the same?

Should we simply not look at such crimes if the addict is now clean? Would you vote for a person with such a past? (No, I'm not talking about Cindy; she's not running.) Would you hire someone to work for your company with such a federal criminal record?

I realize that people can come clean and stay clean, but where is the line drawn? Most addicts I have known admit that they have to fight every day of their lives to stay clean. If going to any length to get drugs is "typical addict" behavior, at what point is it no longer a concern?

[Lumatiza]

Good questions and tough to answer. You bring up a lot of gray areas. I personaly have a deep respect for anyone who has had an addiction and has managed to fight it and move on. I think it many cases surviving an addiction can be a strength because it speaks to the character of the person and their will power. Of course, an employer, for example, could worry about hiring an recovering addict because they think they might fall again which is always a possibility too. It depends......hmmmm

[HammBugga]

I don't think being an addict makes those crimes less criminal. However, I can totally understand doing those things to get the next fix because I AM an addict. I think that there comes a point when people are able to forgive and move on from what the addict did while they were using. But that point comes at different times for different people. And for some people, that point of forgiveness never comes. That is what the 9th and 10th steps of the program are for.

9. We made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

10. We made direct amends to such people, wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

I've made amends to all those I harmed when I was using. Some of them I spoke with directly and asked what I could do to make that amends. Others, I made living amends. Meaning I changed my life and did various things that they might not even know about but that made right what I did wrong.

Some people have never forgiven me and that is ok too. I just have to keep doing what I am doing and maybe someday they will be able to forgive me.

A lot of addicts do have to clean up criminal wreckage. They turn themselves in for warrants or crimes they committed. How they make amends is individual and between them and their sponsor.

[HammBugga]

I guess I didn't answer your question about the line and where it is drawn. I believe that addicts who do crimes should be punished just like everyone else in the legal system. However I also think that, depending on the crimes question, it may just be more beneficial for society for the courts to sentence that addict to an inpatient program and have a suspended sentence. It all depends on the addict and the crime. Murder-no. Petty theft-maybe.

[JustMoi]

Addicts who commit crimes don't get a free pass. Whatever the penalty for the crime is, they should pay it. If that means jail time so be it. Addiction is not an excuse for criminal behavior.

[crissyy]

My sister is an addict and uses meth. She has 2 children, ages 6 and 3. My parents have always coddled her and played the "poor J, she needs our support" game. My mom lied for her to keep her out of jail on at least one occasion. She has lost her kids once, but got them back. She was put on probation, put in jail, and put on 3x a week drug testing. She finally got her own apartment and seemed to be doing well, but, come to find out, she has used at least 3 times just since she moved in there. The friend that she did it with lost her kids, but they told my sister that if my mom moved in with her for a couple of days until they were sure the drugs were out of her system, they would let her keep her kids. They initially told her she had to go to rehab, but then the caseworker said that she didn't think she needed rehab, she just seemed to make bad choices. Once again, she is just getting a slap on the wrist.

I love my sister, but there needs to be consequences for her actions. They have told her over and over again that if she uses again, she will lose the kids, but it never happens. I think the kids would be better off in foster care than with her.

Back on the main subject of the topic, my sister has broken into my parents' house to steal money for drugs, got arrested on a drug deal with her daughter strapped into the carseat next to her, been caught with a needle hanging out of her arm while holding her newborn son with the other, and I can't even remember the rest.

I think, no matter what the circumstances, you HAVE to hold addicts accountable. If my sister had been forced to pay the price for all her crimes, maybe she wouldn't be still using.

[Wolverine]

If my sister had been forced to pay the price for all her crimes, maybe she wouldn't be still using.

I don't think this is true. Scare tactics and consequences never work with addicts. Internal change is the only true motivator. I don't think that addicts shouldn't be held accountable. However, I don't think consequences will stop an addict from using.

[crissyy]

I don't think this is true. Scare tactics and consequences never work with addicts. Internal change is the only true motivator. I don't think that addicts shouldn't be held accountable. However, I don't think consequences will stop an addict from using.

Slaps on the wrist don't help either. The same laws apply to addicts as to non-addicts. She should have had her kids taken away and thrown in jail. From there, she could have been given counseling and worked on the internal change part. She has been using the "I'm an addict, so I can't help it" excuse for far too long.

[Tweet]

How far does this go? Is it understandable if an addict abuses someone because he/she is high, or is it only understandable if the person commits a crime to get drugs? I'm not sure. It's my belief that a person that abuses would/could do so w/o drugs but that drugs seem to bring it out even more. I've not personally ever known anyone that has only been abusive while using. Personally, abuse even when using drugs ( to be clear I'm including alcohol as a drug) is hard for me to be understanding of.

Is it different if a person steals from his/her family instead of from a nonprofit organization? What about stealing from one's employer? What if the person is stealing meds that are meant for a patient (for example, like in a nursing home)?I do not think it's much different, but it seems worse if a medication is meant for a patient in need. However, I realize the desperation and understand that when it gets to that point, the addict is not at all thinking clearly and is only thinking about how to get that drug. Is it horrible and selfish and hurtful? Hell, yes. But that's what happens and I've personally known many people who have gone to these lengths to obtain drugs but would never do any such thing when clean. Ftr, these people are from all different walks of life. Carpenters,doctors, lawyers, street people, etc.

Does it matter how or why a person became an addict? I'm not sure I understand the question, but I believe that addiction is a symptom or outcome of some pretty serious issues. It matters in the sense that those issues need to be addressed and worked through. Or, if you mean is it more understandable if a person becomes addicted to pain medication because they started taking it for a legitimate medical reason and then became addicted, I personally don't think so. I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me. It's just been my experience that people will self medicate for all kinds of pain, not just physical pain.

What if the person commits armed robbery to get drugs? Murder?This area gets murky for me. I know some drugs like crystal meth that have caused hallucinations so severe that the users have murdered. It' likely hypocritical of me, but no, I can't be understanding of this. Armed robbery? I'm more understanding.

Are desperate crimes by addicts seen as less severe and more forgivable than other crimes? Is it not as bad for an addict to embezzle from his/her employer or a nonprofit organization as it would be for someone who is not an addict to do the same?It depends. Desperation isn't only a result from addiction. Was the person in desperate need of money? Were they mentally ill? Or was it someone just getting their kicks?

Should we simply not look at such crimes if the addict is now clean? Would you vote for a person with such a past? (No, I'm not talking about Cindy; she's not running.) Would you hire someone to work for your company with such a federal criminal record?Again, case by case. I believe in giving recovered addicts a second chance. It would depend on the crimes committed, also.And how much clean time the person had and just generally what kind of person they are. The same goes for voting for someone.

I realize that people can come clean and stay clean, but where is the line drawn? Most addicts I have known admit that they have to fight every day of their lives to stay clean. If going to any length to get drugs is "typical addict" behavior, at what point is it no longer a concern?Who knows. I've known many addicts and generally speaking the only ones that have ever said that when I've been around have been very early in recovery. I've also known some that were clean but refused to work on any issues and ended up using again. You never know what can happen and it's always possible that a person could pick up again. I just tend to have more faith in the addicts that are willing to go to any length to stay clean and sane.


I also want to be clear that while I understand most of these situations, that doesn't mean that I think there should be no consequences.If you commit a crime, you pay for it like anyone else would. But I strongly believe that addicts need drug programs,meetings, and counseling. I think it's pretty rare to remain clean w/o some form of help.

[HammBugga]

I don't think this is true. Scare tactics and consequences never work with addicts. Internal change is the only true motivator. I don't think that addicts shouldn't be held accountable. However, I don't think consequences will stop an addict from using.


I agree and have seen that first hand. Another big problem with addicts "Getting away with it" is co dependant family members/loved ones. I have seen many friends suffer because a family member or members just can't stop being co dependent and let them hit bottom.

[Tweet]

Yep, I've seen that a lot, too.

[Tweet]

I don't know that it's very common, but I HAVE heard a handful of addicts say that their motivator was , in a sense, jail simply because they were sober long enough to realize they wanted and needed help.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Thanks for the responses. It's interesting to read the perspectives of others.

crissyy, the situation you described is sad, especially for the kids. When kids are being harmed, that's when I really have a difficult time having compassion for the addict.


Does it matter how or why a person became an addict? I'm not sure I understand the question,
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant by how was, "Did the person become addicted because of illegal drugs or because of prescription drugs?" What I meant by why was, "Were there circumstances, like death of a loved one, that sent the person over the edge?"


I don't know that it's very common, but I HAVE heard a handful of addicts say that their motivator was , in a sense, jail simply because they were sober long enough to realize they wanted and needed help.
I've heard this, too, and then again, I've heard of people getting worse. That's what I'm afraid would happen with my sister, especially since she's also mentally ill. She is an alcoholic, and she got a DUI a couple of years ago. The case has still not been resolved. I'm not sure if it's for the best, but most likely she'll win the case because of her intelligence and because of the sheriff's department's stupidity.

[HammBugga]

Having met thousands of addicts in my recovery, there are very few that have had perfect lives and no reason to start using. Most addicts have been abused, neglected, beat down etc. before they ever picked up a drink or drug.