S/O the Obama/SS Thread...

[Aeonkat]

No, there is no case in point. You have proven yourself time and time again to be intolerant and hate filled to those who don't believe as you do.

Wasn't this the reason you were not welcome at nmnet anymore? I seem to recall people there getting tired of your antics.


You know, I may say some mean things, but you always go further. Just look at your posts and what they say. I have never told you to fuck off or called you a bitch. Yet you have. The worst I have said was that you are an ignorant tool that only cares for your kind. Essentially your vote proves that. McCain's tax plan proves it mostly benefits your kind. SO I wasn't far off there, despite my bad delivery. You tout your volunteer service like a new LV bag. You want to be admired and respected for it. You kinda lost that when you bragged thread after thread at this perceived threat to defend yourself. You should feel pretty ashamed about that.

Not that it matters, I left nm.net because I was tried of the bullying there and mindless threads about fluff and the reign of a few posters that controlled it all. Bf.com and now ihmmb are more fullfilling to me so I spend more time here and there. I never "left", I just stopped posting. I am stil registered there and post every so often in the private forums. Just because the popular, controlling posters disliked me for calling them out, doesn't mean everyone was fed up with my antics. In fact, several that post there are still my friends. Nice try at deflection. Dare I ask what this had to do with this thread or topic? Or was this more of your ad hominem attack since you can't debate the real issues of why your candidate sucks.

[Bellaelle]

Sunnie, I am not a door mat for anyone. If she wants to try and attack me, she can expect me to give back. I am a very straight forward type of person. I do not consider sticking up for yourself *stooping*.

[Sunnie]

Bullying Aeon? There's no bullying at nm.net. I dont' post there much anymore because of the fluff, but there is no bullying.

[Bellaelle]

You are the queen of ad hominen attacks. Look at all your recent posts.
The nmnet was brought up to show that you have a history for posting in an ugly manner, especially towards those who disagree with you.

I don't know what the hell you are talking about in regards to not debating the real issues about my candidate.

Hamm, Judy and I have had no trouble doing so.

[GirlsMama]

I can't wait until Obama wins.

[Aeonkat]

Bullying Aeon? There's no bullying at nm.net. I dont' post there much anymore because of the fluff, but there is no bullying.


Sunnie, this was years ago. Which is why I was surprised Belle picked this of all things to attack me with. I think the last time I posted on the main board was circa 2006 maybe?

[Sunnie]

Bella, you get just as mean and nasty as Aeon when you think you and yours have been wronged. It does nothing to defend yourself or to get your point across. It just makes you seem nasty.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I wonder if Gigi is laughing her ass off over the shitstorm that she caused.

[Bellaelle]

Bella, you get just as mean and nasty as Aeon when you think you and yours have been wronged. It does nothing to defend yourself or to get your point across. It just makes you seem nasty.

If that was the case, I would have a reputation for being that way. As it is, the only time I get nasty is when I am directly being slandered or provoked.

[Sunnie]

Do we have the brick wall smilie?

[Bellaelle]

Poor Gigi. All she did was ask a simple question.

[Sunnie]

*snork* Simple question? Re-read her OP.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Poor Gigi. All she did was ask a simple question.
LMFAO. I hope that was supposed to be a joke.

[JudyJudyJudy]

*snork* Simple question? Re-read her OP.
There were some less than simple questions, but the other bullshit was the real winner.

[Aeonkat]

If that was the case, I would have a reputation for being that way. As it is, the only time I get nasty is when I am directly being slandered or provoked.


Is that always going to be your excuse? "But I was provoked!" You seem to be overly concerned about this idea of your image being "slandered". Just like your constant need to brag about your volunteering. To fit this image you want for yourself and you don't want anyone questioning it. Kinda reminds me of when I and others "questioned" KB and her reaction to it. Like you said then, "but she was provoked!" Right.

Damn straight I am going to question your motives concerning this election. My motives for voting for Obama? I want everyone to have affordable access to healthcare. It's a RIGHT. I want my freedom of my body to be protected. I want the middle class to resurface and BE middle class. I don't want the rich and big corporations to continue widening the income gap. I don't want the rich to continue to get tax cuts that are better than the middle class and poor.

Yours seems to be the opposite of this. You don't want to lose your tax breaks and for your taxes to go up. Because that would totally make you suffer and worry about either food or paying your rent. Or buying healthcare or getting your car fixed. Oh wait, Amber said it was so she can keep her lawn people and housekeepers. I forgot due to it's none importance. Gardening and housekeeping do not compare to healthcare and mortgage.

[Bellaelle]

I don't brag about my volunteering. You know damn well why it has been brought up.

As for KB, I can honestly say there were those who did pick on her for their perceived image of who she was. Not everyone who questioned her felt that way, but people such as you who took it to a personal level for no reason other than you hated what she presented.

[Bellaelle]

Or rather I should say what she pretended to be. ugh.

[Aeonkat]

I don't brag about my volunteering. You know damn well why it has been brought up.

As for KB, I can honestly say there were those who did pick on her for their perceived image of who she was. Not everyone who questioned her felt that way, but people such as you who took it to a personal level for no reason other than you hated what she presented.


Yeah I tend to dislike fake and lies. Apparently you don't, hence your vote. ;)


Bwahahahaha.

[Sunnie]

I don't brag about my volunteering. You know damn well why it has been brought up.

As for KB, I can honestly say there were those who did pick on her for their perceived image of who she was. Not everyone who questioned her felt that way, but people such as you who took it to a personal level for no reason other than you hated what she presented.


Oh bullshit Bella. I knew from day one that she was lying through her teeth. It had nothing to do with what she said she had and everything to do with that she was a lying liar who lies.

[EvilAmy]

Oh my word.


Bellaelle stated right off the bat wasn't so much the matter of taxes, but the fact the gov't waste it is spent on, and she wasn't referring to social programs being waste. I don't blame her I would want to see my money used wisely not wasted on the trival shit.
Reminds me of the scene in "Stranger Than Fiction" where the gal tells Harold Crick that she is all for infrasturcture/social program etc, but not in favor of wasteful spending. So she was refusing to pay all the gov't wanted and only paying for the good things that taxes go to. (I wonder if I can find a quote) That is exactly what I read in Bellaells initial post.

What chaps my hide is that Gov't always cut the important things first. When I think beauracracy could be cleaned up and better organized if they went and cut out a lot of things that were truley nonessential. I think they target education and healthcare because it's the big tug on your heart string points. Say you're going to cut funding on grant to researchers that study the flow of ketchup and we'd be all "Okey dokey."
(I know that was a lousy example but it's a quarter to one and I'm getting sleepy) Want to get a side riled up, start talking about things that effect them, it's a good way for gov't to keep it's grip by keeping people at each others throats.

Okay maybe I'm really sleepy.

[Bellaelle]

Oh bullshit Bella. I knew from day one that she was lying through her teeth. It had nothing to do with what she said she had and everything to do with that she was a lying liar who lies.

I am not saying you didn't, but how did you know she was a fake? Granted, I did wonder at times why there were not pics with her and the kids, but I just assumed like most mothers, she was behind the camera.

I do recall a pic with her and Kylie.

[EvilAmy]

OKay this is getting petty bullshit. Going off of someones existance because they never posted pics of themselves with their kids?

Okay then clearly my kids aren't mine. I have a hijacked photbuckey family. BTW weird thing is someone did hijack my photobucket account. But still I have not once posted a picture of me with my kids. I wonder if it's me or the kids that are fake.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Only a few times before KB's quick engagement and subsequent marriage did I suspect that she was fake. She did start to get more extreme and more extreme, but I thought she was just lonely and wanted attention. I guess I wasn't wrong about that part.

[Aeonkat]

Oh my word.


Bellaelle stated right off the bat wasn't so much the matter of taxes, but the fact the gov't waste it is spent on, and she wasn't referring to social programs being waste. I don't blame her I would want to see my money used wisely not wasted on the trival shit.
Reminds me of the scene in "Stranger Than Fiction" where the gal tells Harold Crick that she is all for infrasturcture/social program etc, but not in favor of wasteful spending. So she was refusing to pay all the gov't wanted and only paying for the good things that taxes go to. (I wonder if I can find a quote) That is exactly what I read in Bellaells initial post.

What chaps my hide is that Gov't always cut the important things first. When I think beauracracy could be cleaned up and better organized if they went and cut out a lot of things that were truley nonessential. I think they target education and healthcare because it's the big tug on your heart string points. Say you're going to cut funding on grant to researchers that study the flow of ketchup and we'd be all "Okey dokey."
(I know that was a lousy example but it's a quarter to one and I'm getting sleepy) Want to get a side riled up, start talking about things that effect them, it's a good way for gov't to keep it's grip by keeping people at each others throats.

Okay maybe I'm really sleepy.

Which is why I can't understand why anyone would vote for McCain. At least Obama wants to spend the money on good things like healthcare and education.

[Aeonkat]

OKay this is getting petty bullshit. Going off of someones existance because they never posted pics of themselves with their kids?

Okay then clearly my kids aren't mine. I have a hijacked photbuckey family. BTW weird thing is someone did hijack my photobucket account. But still I have not once posted a picture of me with my kids. I wonder if it's me or the kids that are fake.


Ftr, it was Belle that said that, not Sunnie. It was much more than that. Much more. But let's not rehash the whole thing please.

[Bellaelle]

OKay this is getting petty bullshit. Going off of someones existance because they never posted pics of themselves with their kids?

Okay then clearly my kids aren't mine. I have a hijacked photbuckey family. BTW weird thing is someone did hijack my photobucket account. But still I have not once posted a picture of me with my kids. I wonder if it's me or the kids that are fake.

With Kb, she posted so many pics of herself, so that is why I wondered why she did not post pics with her and the kids. I never question others because like I said, most moms are behind the camera.

[JudyJudyJudy]

OKay this is getting petty bullshit. Going off of someones existance because they never posted pics of themselves with their kids?

Okay then clearly my kids aren't mine. I have a hijacked photbuckey family. BTW weird thing is someone did hijack my photobucket account. But still I have not once posted a picture of me with my kids. I wonder if it's me or the kids that are fake.
If you posted tons of pictures of yourself with everyone but your kids and then tons of your kids with everyone but you, I would understand if people started questioning it, especially now, lol.

[Bellaelle]

Only a few times before KB's quick engagement and subsequent marriage did I suspect that she was fake. She did start to get more extreme and more extreme, but I thought she was just lonely and wanted attention. I guess I wasn't wrong about that part.

Well, I was duped.

You are right about her being lonely. If she had just posted as herself, I think she would have been welcomed and liked by most.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Oh, I was duped, too. Even when I'd have doubts (the few times I did), I'd push them out of my head.

I actually think she would have been BETTER liked if she had posted as herself instead of being so in-your-face, look-at-me-and-how-wonderful-I-have-it.

[EvilAmy]

Which is why I can't understand why anyone would vote for McCain. At least Obama wants to spend the money on good things like healthcare and education.


Honestly I can't see why anybody would vote for either of them. I don't see how the hell Obama is going to pay for everything he says he wants to do even if it's only raising taxes on the rich, letting the Bush tax plan lapse etc. He's going to be another George Bush in the manner saying "Read my lips, no new taxes." Uhm not, with everything going on we ALL are going to have a tax hike. Even in not just letting tax cuts lapse and raising taxes incomes over 250,000 (though I heard a recent clip where he stated 200,000 and that blithering Biden said 150,000 but what does he know, he's constantly saying dumb shit anyway). And McCain, sheesh I have issues with that man as well.

I won't vote for Obama in part of Biden and his no coal policies. And yet they are anti-nuclear as well. Palin and Biden are what my friend would refer to as a "pair of gorics" both are smug and condecending.


Okayt I'm babling I HAVE to get some sleep.

[EvilAmy]

Gads can we please quit giving KB attention now. She would be the one that could be an attnetion whore and not even be in the room. (Sorry she was a sore point with me)

[Sunnie]

heh

[Bellaelle]

Oh, I was duped, too. Even when I'd have doubts (the few times I did), I'd push them out of my head.

I actually think she would have been BETTER liked if she had posted as herself instead of being so in-your-face, look-at-me-and-how-wonderful-I-have-it.


Oh, I know you were duped. Right along with me.

Well, you live and you learn.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Honestly I can't see why anybody would vote for either of them. I don't see how the hell Obama is going to pay for everything he says he wants to do even if it's only raising taxes on the rich, letting the Bush tax plan lapse etc. He's going to be another George Bush in the manner saying "Read my lips, no new taxes." Uhm not, with everything going on we ALL are going to have a tax hike. Even in not just letting tax cuts lapse and raising taxes incomes over 250,000 (though I heard a recent clip where he stated 200,000 and that blithering Biden said 150,000 but what does he know, he's constantly saying dumb shit anyway). And McCain, sheesh I have issues with that man as well.
I'm too tired to look for it right now, but my understanding is that the taxes would most likely increase for those making over $250,000 and stay about the same for those between $200,000 and $250,000.


I won't vote for Obama in part of Biden and his no coal policies. And yet they are anti-nuclear as well. Palin and Biden are what my friend would refer to as a "pair of gorics" both are smug and condecending.
Obama is neither anti-coal nor anti-nuclear. He is for "clean coal" and said that he has not ruled out nuclear.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/distorting_obama.html

[Bellaelle]

Here is a good article about the implications of taxing small businesses:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11670.html

[JudyJudyJudy]

Tax experts see little difference between Obama's, McCain's plan for small businesses
(http://www.kansascity.com/445/story/864515.html)

[Justicedog]

Honestly I can't see why anybody would vote for either of them. I don't see how the hell Obama is going to pay for everything he says he wants to do even if it's only raising taxes on the rich


He's not raising taxes, he's just going to ask them to pay more. I'm sure he wouldn't have used the word "ask" in his web page if he meant tell or force.

[Justicedog]

So you stoop to her level?


I don't think most get that low. Bella certainly hasn't. I agree with what was said, at least what I remember. Aeon is carrying around a lot of anger (that comes across to many) as hate. That's not healthy. It's not a good way to teach ones children.

[xobehs]

Poor Gigi. All she did was ask a simple question.
She did not just ask a simple question. She hauled herself upon the soapbox and op 'ed ed.
Cry me a smelly river.

[BeanBabies]

Bitch.












Wow.

Completely uncalled for.

[_Viva_]

This is an ugly thread.

Bella, I know it sucks when people attack you, but consider the source. You have more class in your pinky than some others have in their whole body. Don't let it get to you.

The refusal of some people to see the other side, EVER, whilst shouting out how TOLERANT and FAIR they want the world to be never ceases to amaze me. Just because we do not agree with your side does not mean we have not looked at it.

Do you REALLY believe that having corporations pay a huge increase in taxes will help? Because, let me tell you, they're not going to pay those taxes out of their profits. They're going to increase prices to YOU. YOU, then in effect, will pay the taxes ANYWAY.

Controlling spending and ending pork-barrel projects is the only way to get back on track and pay for the programs that are truly needed. It's not a blank check. Either way, the average citizen pays it.

[CatSoup]

Honestly I can't see why anybody would vote for either of them. I don't see how the hell Obama is going to pay for everything he says he wants to do even if it's only raising taxes on the rich, letting the Bush tax plan lapse etc. He's going to be another George Bush in the manner saying "Read my lips, no new taxes." Uhm not, with everything going on we ALL are going to have a tax hike. Even in not just letting tax cuts lapse and raising taxes incomes over 250,000 (though I heard a recent clip where he stated 200,000 and that blithering Biden said 150,000 but what does he know, he's constantly saying dumb shit anyway). And McCain, sheesh I have issues with that man as well.


We need a smiley that simply nods it's head yes.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Yep, they even lived in their car for a while there. Her dh also came from a poor background. They know exactly what it is like to struggle.

I agree.

Aeon, to be fair, using your argument Barack Obama doesn't know what it's like to struggle. Knowing his background, I'll bet he does.

There are certainly some rags to riches folks who forget where they came from, but I don't think having a comfortable lifestyle guarantees it.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

I wonder if Gigi is laughing her ass off over the shitstorm that she caused.

No, I'll bet she's still bitching about how people were so mean to her and her family member for no reason.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Do you REALLY believe that having corporations pay a huge increase in taxes will help? Because, let me tell you, they're not going to pay those taxes out of their profits. They're going to increase prices to YOU. YOU, then in effect, will pay the taxes ANYWAY.

Their tax cuts, conversely, are not going to trickle down and help the consumer or employee. They will, like Wal-Mart, keep the profits and pay their employees dick, keep them working 38 hours so that they aren't full-time, and give them one of the worst insurance policies in the country.

Either way the little guy isn't getting a break so why shouldn't the corporations pay their share of taxes? I pay mine. I certainly don't have it to spare. They can too. I will never, ever understand the "poor little multi-national, multi-billion dollar business" attitude.

Controlling spending and ending pork-barrel projects is the only way to get back on track and pay for the programs that are truly needed. It's not a blank check. Either way, the average citizen pays it.

I agree with this.

[cottontop2]

Obama's proposed tax increase will roll back the Bush tax cuts on the wealthiest of Americans (those who NET more than $600,000.) Pretty much what we saw in the 90's.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

I don't believe those taxes caused the wealthy to go broke and fire all of their hired help or companies to go out of business. Actually, the economy was much healthier under Clinton.

[cottontop2]

Come on, Sasha. It was a terrible time of socialism and communism.

[BeanBabies]

When it's your family member that gets brought into it, we'll talk, K?

I felt attacked. I felt she was insulting to him. My mind will not be changed on that.



Yeesh, you're pretty much just making stuff up at this point.

[TuetonicWillow]

What sucks is struggling to support myself and my children so I can get through school while people like you vote to make it much harder for me and to take away the rights of myself and my daughters

Again, you're dead wrong.

McCain doesn't even have my vote.

You are really lashing out unduly.

[BeanBabies]

Gigi, your post and subsequent posts have been nothing but insulting to me and others I am sure. Take you victim "don't be talkin' bout my daddy!" bullshit and piss off. I hope no one ever greats your hardship with the compassion you seem to have given here in this thread. I hope you never become disabled and people treat you like you have spoke about those on assistance here. As others have said, the amount of those who abuse the system are far and few between. You may not know this, but it is not easy to qualify or falsify all the info DES requires to get assistance.

My kids sure do deserve healthcare and as long as I qualify for it, I will. I don't work because I go to school full time+ and it is more beneficial for me to complete school in 2 years versus 4+ by going part time and trying to work full time. I would still probably qualify for assistance anyways. How lucky for you you had a job and degree when you got divorced. Do you realize how rare that is for many single moms out there? You opinions and ideas suck. You should want to change this and plan to help other single moms out there and get them back into school and utilizing ALL the assistance they can get so they can self-sufficient and strong in the long run. Maybe that could help them stay out of an abusive relationship. I can't believe you can so easily write them off.

And really, I don't believe for one second anyone who has come from poverty would ever vote Republican and against government programs. Unless they are unsympathetic and forgetful of where they came from.

Once again I find it despicable that Belle feels she "has to" brag about her volunteer work while insinuating everyone else doesn't do anything. I think her and TW should start a club where they brag about how much they volunteer and then they can pat themselves on the back for helping out all the po' folk.

I think all the rich folk here need to spend a month living in poverty and maybe then they can appreciate what they have. Maybe then they won't complain of maybe having to dismiss their gardener when their taxes go up a few % points. I'll remember that when I am worried about paying rent in December, let alone Christmas. Having to cut your own grass or clean your own house is comparable to a middle class family working their asses off and not being able to take Johnny to the doctors. Someone has to pay for the deficit and it should be those who can afford it. Especially when it's a difference between a European vacation or healthcare for their family.

Huh.

You make me admire you and want to knock your block off all in one post.

Bravo.

[BeanBabies]

Steel, we will just have to agree to disagree. She has come off as very hate filled and angry towards republicans,christians and the well off for years. This is nothing new.

I can totally understand not agreeing with a political platform or religion, but there is no reason to name call or belittle those who do agree with it.



Not necessarily true. DH and I are well off, and Kat has never been hateful, angry or mean to me. *shrug*

[Sameach]

Do you REALLY believe that having corporations pay a huge increase in taxes will help? Because, let me tell you, they're not going to pay those taxes out of their profits. They're going to increase prices to YOU. YOU, then in effect, will pay the taxes ANYWAY.




Which will be the tidy little ribbon on Sen. Obama's elaborately wrapped package of recycled shit. He'll come out smelling like a rose because he'll be able to blame big bad corporate America.

[Sameach]

Bean you're cracking me up quoting as you read!

[Amberry]

I didn't call anyone heartless. I do think Belle, Amber, TW, et al need to spend a month living in poverty to gain some perspective.



Ha.

You.have.no.idea.

However, I am comfortable enough in my own skin, and with my own life and experiences to not have to sit here and feel like I have to delineate every sacrifice, every trial or tribulation to you so that you know that I have perspective.

Why is it so darn hard for you to understand that some people have their opinions, convictions and beliefs based on real solid life experiences of their own and they come to real educated and thought out conclusions? It is not simply a case of, if we know what you know, or do what you do, or learn what you have learned we will gain some perspective.

[Amberry]

And really, I don't believe for one second anyone who has come from poverty would ever vote Republican and against government programs. Unless they are unsympathetic and forgetful of where they came from.


The path to true education is when you are able to admit that you know nothing.

[EvilAmy]

Obama is neither anti-coal nor anti-nuclear. He is for "clean coal" and said that he has not ruled out nuclear.

Yes my bad. I shouldn't have lumped Obama in with Biden.

[newbie]

Obama is a coal man, the UMWA endorsed him, I know that because my dh is in the mining business.

[steelady]

Obama's proposed tax increase will roll back the Bush tax cuts on the wealthiest of Americans (those who NET more than $600,000.) Pretty much what we saw in the 90's.


If I'm not mistaken (and I may well be), taxes will still be less than under Reagon (or equivilent to while under Reagon).

You know, Uncle Ronnie, that socialist.

(hey, he was the only president who was a union president)

[EvilAmy]

I know the UMWA endorsed him, they also put out newletters with cartoons that would lead you to believe coalminers are uneducated rednecks that need their hands held.
Depending on his land use stance has a large bearing on the coal industry here in the west. Sorry I have dealt with Dh being in a non-union mine and a union mine. Any more I'm not so crazy about the union.

[EvilAmy]

And BTW McCain is a coalman as well, the UWMA just supports Dems when it comes to presidential elections. They only support a small handfull of Reps.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I do feel that I need to speak up in this thread. Both TW and Bella are very generous and thoughtful people; I know this personally. Their presentations don't exactly come out that way, so I can see why others don't realize it, but I did feel that I needed to speak up. I'd be lying, though, if I said that I haven't been hurt by some of their words (especially TW's) in threads over the past weeks. I won't even attempt to name any particular comments; I guess it's more of a general feeling I've gotten. However, as I said, I did want to speak up and make it clear that they are generous people.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Any more I'm not so crazy about the union.
I live in a "right-to-work" state. We don't have coal mines here, so I don't know anything about them. However, I do know that the factory workers in this state need unions. I know people who have worked full-time in factories for decades, getting all the over-time they can, and they're still teetering on the edge of poverty. They're not lazy fucks who don't work like some seem to think the lower class are. It's not that they haven't "worked hard" as some seem to think is all it takes to be well-off or even "okay-off." The fact is that they bust their asses for almost nothing, and then sometimes the factories close up shop and leave them with no retirement after 30+ years. It's really sad.

[Aeonkat]

I do feel that I need to speak up in this thread. Both TW and Bella are very generous and thoughtful people; I know this personally. Their presentations don't exactly come out that way, so I can see why others don't realize it, but I did feel that I needed to speak up. I'd be lying, though, if I said that I haven't been hurt by some of their words (especially TW's) in threads over the past weeks. I won't even attempt to name any particular comments; I guess it's more of a general feeling I've gotten. However, as I said, I did want to speak up and make it clear that they are generous people.


Let it be known, I never said either was not generous. In fact, I have commented that I think Belle is generous and her volunteer work admirable. However, Belle's (I don't know who TW is voting for, but her comments suck) vote does speak volumes as well. I think that is just as important as their generosity. You can be generous and volunteer up the wazoo, but when your vote potentially leaves many without healthcare and other benefits, then it kinda negates that. Not to mention ignoring economic plans and only deeming Obama's as socialist when McCain's is just as "socialist" and will also increase our deficit much more.

Voting for a candidate that will supposedly make you richer full well knowing it will negatively affect over 60% of the country is selfish. Period. When you are already wealthy and vote to make yourself wealthier at the cost of making the middle and poor more poor speaks volumes to me. I'm sure Belle's vote is more detailed than that (like including abortion) but I think the economic policies are the most important in this election. Not to mention I highly doubt McCain will change Roe v. Wade.

[BeanBabies]

I think I finally get what you are saying.

In your opinion, Belle is voting for herself while you feel she should be voting for the people.

For eg., wealthier people should be willing to pay extra taxes for the greater good, as opposed to lowering your taxes a little bit (which - if you are well off would at most cost you great luxuries - gardeners, pool cleaners, nanny, housekeeper, a 3 year old car instead of a new one) which wouldn't do any serious harm. In order to lower your taxes, millions of people suffer the consequences.

The fact that you are willing to overlook everyone else for your own benefit almost seems like blatant greed. I don't think that Aeon understands why you aren't willing to make such a sacrifice that would benefit millions of people.

And if I'm way off base, I apologize Aeon. I certainly don't mean to speak for you.

I don't necessarily agree with her opinion (if this is it) but I can certainly see her point of view.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Bean, I think that's where Aeon is coming from, too, and I do indeed see her point of view (though not the delivery or nasty remarks). The people I know who are poor or middle class (or formerly middle class) and are struggling don't ask for a lot, but they do want the basics of life, including healthcare. Most also aren't even necessarily worried about how many taxes they're paying; they're concerned that they aren't making enough in the first place to take care of their families.

[BeanBabies]

I live in a "right-to-work" state. We don't have coal mines here, so I don't know anything about them. However, I do know that the factory workers in this state need unions. I know people who have worked full-time in factories for decades, getting all the over-time they can, and they're still teetering on the edge of poverty. They're not lazy fucks who don't work like some seem to think the lower class are. It's not that they haven't "worked hard" as some seem to think is all it takes to be well-off or even "okay-off." The fact is that they bust their asses for almost nothing, and then sometimes the factories close up shop and leave them with no retirement after 30+ years. It's really sad.


Our neighbour is getting his roof re-done. Every morning a delapidated van with no front or rear fenders pulls up. The muffler is shot, it's all rusted up, windows down (so no airconditioning or trying to preserve gas), the thing is honestly a piece of crap, and I'm surprised it still runs. The wife (I'm assuming) drops off her husband and she leaves. The husband works on the roof from 8 - 6 and she comes back to pick them up. I live next door. I hear the nail gun. That man works steady for 10 hours straight, putting on a new roof all by himself.

They (most likely) can't afford more than one vehicle and the one they do have is barely running.

You tell me he doesn't work hard enough. He works harder than most people I know.

[QuiltyConscience]

Aeon, seriously, do you not see how narrow-minded you are coming across?
People either vote as you say, or you insult them, belittle and mock them.
Your own words discussing people who are not voting as you deem fit:

The worst I have said was that you are an ignorant tool that only cares for your kind.

Unless you are blind and choose to ignore facts. I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case though.

That's a bunch of bull. The wealthy have functioned and continued to get wealthier off of screwing the middle class and poor.

Although, anyone voting for McCain/Palin are pretty ignorant in my eyes

Just think, Belle, all this time you spend right now on the internets could be better spent volunteering. Talk about selfish.


Post after post of just nasty comments because people simply do not see things the way you do.

[BeanBabies]

But I think to Aeon that the other party's actions are so heinous, that she couldn't say anything that could compare. They don't deserve her pleasantries.

[QuiltyConscience]

But she isn't digging at a party, or a candidate . She is lashing out at individuals who don't agree with her.

[Aeonkat]

I think I finally get what you are saying.

In your opinion, Belle is voting for herself while you feel she should be voting for the people.

For eg., wealthier people should be willing to pay extra taxes for the greater good, as opposed to lowering your taxes a little bit (which - if you are well off would at most cost you great luxuries - gardeners, pool cleaners, nanny, housekeeper, a 3 year old car instead of a new one) which wouldn't do any serious harm. In order to lower your taxes, millions of people suffer the consequences.

The fact that you are willing to overlook everyone else for your own benefit almost seems like blatant greed. I don't think that Aeon understands why you aren't willing to make such a sacrifice that would benefit millions of people.

And if I'm way off base, I apologize Aeon. I certainly don't mean to speak for you.

I don't necessarily agree with her opinion (if this is it) but I can certainly see her point of view.

Yes, Bean, that is essentially what I am saying. Wow. You obviously said it way better than me. :) Thank you for seeing my point and how this election and everyone's vote effects me personally and people I care about.

[Aeonkat]

Aeon, seriously, do you not see how narrow-minded you are coming across?
People either vote as you say, or you insult them, belittle and mock them.
Your own words discussing people who are not voting as you deem fit:











Post after post of just nasty comments because people simply do not see things the way you do.


Seriously Quilty, a few of those were obviously sarcastic and TIC in reference to some of Belle's comments. If you are going to quote, include context.

[Aeonkat]

Our neighbour is getting his roof re-done. Every morning a delapidated van with no front or rear fenders pulls up. The muffler is shot, it's all rusted up, windows down (so no airconditioning or trying to preserve gas), the thing is honestly a piece of crap, and I'm surprised it still runs. The wife (I'm assuming) drops off her husband and she leaves. The husband works on the roof from 8 - 6 and she comes back to pick them up. I live next door. I hear the nail gun. That man works steady for 10 hours straight, putting on a new roof all by himself.

They (most likely) can't afford more than one vehicle and the one they do have is barely running.

You tell me he doesn't work hard enough. He works harder than most people I know.


Not to mention much harder then many wealthy. Some of the wealthiest individuals are wealthy because they work in the financial sector and realty. Let's not ignore the hard facts. Hard work does not always pay off like it should and not everyone works hard to get paid high salaries. Granted I do acknowledge those who put in the time for degrees and such and stressful jobs that use the mind more than the body.

I certainly think Frank the Miner (like Joe the Plumber!) works harder than say your average Hollywood actor. I could go on, but I won't.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Our neighbour is getting his roof re-done. Every morning a delapidated van with no front or rear fenders pulls up. The muffler is shot, it's all rusted up, windows down (so no airconditioning or trying to preserve gas), the thing is honestly a piece of crap, and I'm surprised it still runs. The wife (I'm assuming) drops off her husband and she leaves. The husband works on the roof from 8 - 6 and she comes back to pick them up. I live next door. I hear the nail gun. That man works steady for 10 hours straight, putting on a new roof all by himself.

They (most likely) can't afford more than one vehicle and the one they do have is barely running.

You tell me he doesn't work hard enough. He works harder than most people I know.
Unfortunately, that's not an uncommon situation, which is why I'm damned tired of the "working hard" remarks I so frequently read here.

[BeanBabies]

But she isn't digging at a party, or a candidate . She is lashing out at individuals who don't agree with her.
But when it all boils down, if you support it, you "are" the party. I think Aeon sees it that way.

[Aeonkat]

Unfortunately, that's not an uncommon situation, which is why I'm damned tired of the "working hard" remarks I so frequently read here.


You and me both. And these people can't even afford to go to the doctor! Hopefully none get a serious illness and then be out of a job and then be one of those lazies who lives off of assistance.

I could never afford insurance even if I worked full time and had a part time job. Thanks goodness I qualify for medicaid. Unfortunately, many are not as (fortunate?) as I.

[Aeonkat]

But when it all boils down, if you support it, you "are" the party. I think Aeon sees it that way.


Hey if we keep acknowledging how important it is to vote, but in the same breath don't hold people's vote to that level of seriousness, then we are making voting deficient (I can't think of a better word). If someone voted to make slavery legal, would you look at them as racist and hateful for voting to make slavery legal? That's how I look at it. Every vote counts and every person should be held accountable for it. Can't have one without the other.

My own father is voting for McCain and for banning gay marriage. I still love him, but I lost respect and fiercely debate with him when I get the chance. Especially more so when he doesn't have one damn reason for voting those ways.

[QuiltyConscience]

Seriously Quilty, a few of those were obviously sarcastic and TIC in reference to some of Belle's comments. If you are going to quote, include context.

Okay, fine. Explain to me how calling someone an ignorant tool who only cares for her own kind was sarcastic or TIC.

[hidesome]

Okay, fine. Explain to me how calling someone an ignorant tool who only cares for her own kind was sarcastic or TIC.

Whatever you do, don't appeal to logic or facts as written. You'll soon be regarded as "illogical" and "baiting". Maybe I'm being sarcastic and maybe not....I'll wait for the bandwagon to roll in (or not) before I decide.

[BeanBabies]

Whatever you do, don't appeal to logic or facts as written. You'll soon be regarded as "illogical" and "baiting". Maybe I'm being sarcastic and maybe not....I'll wait for the bandwagon to roll in (or not) before I decide.


Can you seriously not even see her point of view? No one (accept Aeon...) is asking you to agree.

I *do* agree that her delivery is about as subtle as a Mack truck, though.

[Amberry]

Aeon, you vote for your rights. Your right to the social programs that you qualify for, your daughters rights to make thier choices about their bodies, every persons rights to a leagl marriage, a right to health care.

I am voting for my right to decide which social programs that I support, the ones that touch me, that ones whos positions that I support and not be forced, through higher taxes, to support the Bureaucratic programs with all the extra pork and kickbacks and spotty implementation that are spoon fed to the public as for the greater good of humanity.

It is my life that has made certain progams more important to me, they are my experiences which have formed my opinions that government programs do not work the way they are promised. And it is my right to support the ones that do. I pay a fuck of a lot of taxes to the government now, in support of programs which, in my experieces do not work.

I am voting for my rights and I do not care if in your, oh so worldly and experienced opinion, that makes me an "ignorant tool."

[Bellaelle]

I think I finally get what you are saying.

In your opinion, Belle is voting for herself while you feel she should be voting for the people.

For eg., wealthier people should be willing to pay extra taxes for the greater good, as opposed to lowering your taxes a little bit (which - if you are well off would at most cost you great luxuries - gardeners, pool cleaners, nanny, housekeeper, a 3 year old car instead of a new one) which wouldn't do any serious harm. In order to lower your taxes, millions of people suffer the consequences.

The fact that you are willing to overlook everyone else for your own benefit almost seems like blatant greed. I don't think that Aeon understands why you aren't willing to make such a sacrifice that would benefit millions of people.

And if I'm way off base, I apologize Aeon. I certainly don't mean to speak for you.

I don't necessarily agree with her opinion (if this is it) but I can certainly see her point of view.


It is not greedy to not want the government to tax you more than you already pay just because you can afford to do so. It is not greed to not want to give one more cent to a government that does not spend the money wisely.

FTR, raising my taxes would not be a hardship on our lifestyle. That has nothing to do with my being against *spreading the wealth*.

I have explained more than once that I have no problem with social programs.
Even if they are sometimes abused, I would rather err on the side of caution and have them available for those who need them.

The money is there; it is just not being spent wisely.

Would you keep handing out cash to a family member who proved themselves to be irresponsible with what you were already giving them? More than likely not.

[Bellaelle]

Not to mention much harder then many wealthy. Some of the wealthiest individuals are wealthy because they work in the financial sector and realty. Let's not ignore the hard facts. Hard work does not always pay off like it should and not everyone works hard to get paid high salaries. Granted I do acknowledge those who put in the time for degrees and such and stressful jobs that use the mind more than the body.

I certainly think Frank the Miner (like Joe the Plumber!) works harder than say your average Hollywood actor. I could go on, but I won't.

You are assuming those people and others like them did not in fact do labor intensive work in their early years. You just never know.

[Bellaelle]

Aeon, you vote for your rights. Your right to the social programs that you qualify for, your daughters rights to make thier choices about their bodies, every persons rights to a leagl marriage, a right to health care.

I am voting for my right to decide which social programs that I support, the ones that touch me, that ones whos positions that I support and not be forced, through higher taxes, to support the Bureaucratic programs with all the extra pork and kickbacks and spotty implementation that are spoon fed to the public as for the greater good of humanity.

It is my life that has made certain progams more important to me, they are my experiences which have formed my opinions that government programs do not work the way they are promised. And it is my right to support the ones that do. I pay a fuck of a lot of taxes to the government now, in support of programs which, in my experieces do not work.

I am voting for my rights and I do not care if in your, oh so worldly and experienced opinion, that makes me an "ignorant tool."

I should have just quoted you. Beautifully said.:smoochy

[_Viva_]

Aeon, you vote for your rights. Your right to the social programs that you qualify for, your daughters rights to make thier choices about their bodies, every persons rights to a leagl marriage, a right to health care.

I am voting for my right to decide which social programs that I support, the ones that touch me, that ones whos positions that I support and not be forced, through higher taxes, to support the Bureaucratic programs with all the extra pork and kickbacks and spotty implementation that are spoon fed to the public as for the greater good of humanity.

It is my life that has made certain progams more important to me, they are my experiences which have formed my opinions that government programs do not work the way they are promised. And it is my right to support the ones that do. I pay a fuck of a lot of taxes to the government now, in support of programs which, in my experieces do not work.

I am voting for my rights and I do not care if in your, oh so worldly and experienced opinion, that makes me an "ignorant tool."

:clap:

[cc1003]

Whatever you do, don't appeal to logic or facts as written. You'll soon be regarded as "illogical" and "baiting". Maybe I'm being sarcastic and maybe not....I'll wait for the bandwagon to roll in (or not) before I decide.


Terribly true.

[QuiltyConscience]

Can you seriously not even see her point of view? No one (accept Aeon...) is asking you to agree.

I *do* agree that her delivery is about as subtle as a Mack truck, though.


It's the delivery that I take issue with. I am always willing to see another point of view, but that street goes both ways. Aeon is demanding that her point of view is the only correct one and anyone who thinks otherwise is just ignorant and selfish. I don't see her trying too hard to consider anyone else's point of view at all.

I get that she is passionate; I don't get why she need to be so nasty to people about it.

There are several posters on the board who disagree on many, many subjects, yet manage to be respectful to others anyway.

It's tiresome.

[Aeonkat]

Quilty, again, context. That whole quote was in regards to my nastiness aimed at Belle and her nastiness aimed at me and it was from another board. I do not have the patience to put up with you taking shit out of context to incite something. Read my whole fucking post or shut up about it.

[Aeonkat]

It is not greedy to not want the government to tax you more than you already pay just because you can afford to do so. It is not greed to not want to give one more cent to a government that does not spend the money wisely.

FTR, raising my taxes would not be a hardship on our lifestyle. That has nothing to do with my being against *spreading the wealth*.

I have explained more than once that I have no problem with social programs.
Even if they are sometimes abused, I would rather err on the side of caution and have them available for those who need them.

The money is there; it is just not being spent wisely.

Would you keep handing out cash to a family member who proved themselves to be irresponsible with what you were already giving them? More than likely not.

Which is more reason to vote for Obama. Republicans are the most notorious for wasting tax payers money. Dare I bring up Palin using state funds to fly her kids anywhere she wants? I get your opinions, what I don't get is your choice that contradicts those opinions. I get the feeling you are ok with corporate welfare and only have a problem with public welfare. Because really that is all y'all bitch about.

[Bellaelle]

Quilty, again, context. That whole quote was in regards to my nastiness aimed at Belle and her nastiness aimed at me and it was from another board. I do not have the patience to put up with you taking shit out of context to incite something. Read my whole fucking post or shut up about it.

You just proved her point with your last line.

[Bellaelle]

Which is more reason to vote for Obama. Republicans are the most notorious for wasting tax payers money. Dare I bring up Palin using state funds to fly her kids anywhere she wants? I get your opinions, what I don't get is your choice that contradicts those opinions. I get the feeling you are ok with corporate welfare and only have a problem with public welfare. Because really that is all y'all bitch about.

Are you being obtuse on purpose? Where have I bitched about public welfare?
You are just a lost cause.

[LTK]

<a href="http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/01/16/go-cry-emo-kid/"><img alt="emo cat" src="http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/2001819576783355739_rs.jpg" /></a>

[JudyJudyJudy]

LTK, is the other board boring tonight?

[Bellaelle]

cute kitten!

[EvilAmy]

Who the hell is LTK?
Little tiny knitwit?

Other than that I don't think people will need therapy because of who who wins but for all the hurt in the viciousness.

Personally it has me speechless anymore.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I forgot what I've posted where since there are so many threads going on about the same topic, but I'll post this here since this is where the shitstorm began:

One of the reasons I think it's a good idea for large corporations to pay more taxes is because so many benefit from government programs. For example, a very large portion of Wal-Mart's employees' kids are on government health plans. Why? Because Wal-Mart pays the employees so little and offers crappy, expensive insurance. Let's not forget also that a lot of the employees of the upper class (like Amber mentioned earlier) have no health insurance; many of their kids are on government health insurance as well. (I'm not saying that Amber's employees are, but I know for a fact that many, many are.) Of course, the adults in such situations usually have no health insurance at all.

The health insurance is just one example. In many cases the large corporations also put a greater strain on the environment, which also ends up taking government money to try to fix. They also rely on those in lower classes to keep them going. Without the other classes, ultimately the corporations would be nothing. Of course, they can also screw people in third world countries to continue to make their profits, though. Perhaps that's the goal at this point.

[Bellaelle]

Judy, that sounds great in theory, but realistically, you know what they will do. They will just pass it on to the consumers. It happens every time there is a surcharge etc.

[Sunnie]

Terribly true.


Terribly condescending.

Other than that, I'm sitting on Judy's and Aeon's (when she's calm ;) ) bench

[JudyJudyJudy]

Judy, that sounds great in theory, but realistically, you know what they will do. They will just pass it on to the consumers. It happens every time there is a surcharge etc.

Of course. Corporate greed isn't a myth. It irks the shit out of me that Bush fucked this up in the first place. Now the corporations will think something is being taken from them whereas if Bush's tax cuts had never gone into effect, then it wouldn't really be an issue.

This is sad and fucking ridiculous, but I'm sure the CEOs "worked hard" :rolleyes::

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/26/news/economy/ceo_pay/

In 2004, the ratio of average CEO pay to the average pay of a production (i.e., non-management) worker was 431-to-1, up from 301-to-1 in 2003, according to "Executive Excess," an annual report released Tuesday by the liberal research groups United for a Fair Economy and the Institute for Policy Studies.

That's not the highest ever. In 2001, the ratio of CEO-to-worker pay hit a peak of 525-to-1.


Still, it's quite a leap year over year, and it ranks on the high end historically. In 1990, for instance, CEOs made about 107 times more than the average worker, while in 1982, the average CEO made only 42 times more.

The cumulative pay of the top 10 highest paid CEOs in the past 15 years totaled $11.7 billion.

[Justicedog]

I get that she is passionate; I don't get why she need to be so nasty to people about it.


Personality.

[pawprint]

Terribly condescending.

Other than that, I'm sitting on Judy's and Aeon's (when she's calm ;) ) benchMe too. Although mostly I am trying to distract you all with my fancy sig line.

[QuiltyConscience]

lol, Paw, how do you feel about the Phillies?

[Tweet]

Quilty, again, context. That whole quote was in regards to my nastiness aimed at Belle and her nastiness aimed at me and it was from another board. I do not have the patience to put up with you taking shit out of context to incite something. Read my whole fucking post or shut up about it.


Aeon, I've followed this whole thread and have read what you've said in context. Most things I agree with you on. It's when you've gotten nasty that I've not agreed. Quilty has read your posts..I have read your posts. They *do*get nasty, no matter what the context.

Just like right now, you are being a bitch to Quilty and assuming she didn't read your whole post. I think everyone sees the context and just about everyone agrees that you get nasty and your delivery sucks most of the time. I mean, I guess it doesn't really matter if you don't mind the fact that pretty soon people just ignore what you have to say and chalk it up to you just going off. I personally wish you wouldn't because I think you've got some good things to say.

I'll also add that when you assume that people "need" to live in poverty to gain perspective, you not only run the risk of not knowing what the fuck you're talking about wrt to people's experiences, but you also look about as uncaring as the people you are accusing of being uncaring.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I refuse to read Paw's posts until she removes that sig. "lol9"