Freebirthing

[Teresa64]

Ok so I watched something on this a couple days ago and I cannot get it out of my mind. I am not against it but I want to understand it more.

I have heard of homebirths before but never w/o some sort of support in case something goes wrong?

Anybody ever considered it or done it? If you have what is your reasoning?

Does it have more to do with the hosipitals/doctors in your region or would you never consider having the support of a midwife or anyone else?

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

I have several friends who have. I have no problem with it.

[Joyto5]

I need the support of a midwife. IF it were to become totally illegal in my state, I know many midwives that would go underground and still attend births.

I need the support of my midwives to help me through my births. Someone to bring me back into focus if I were to start to loose it.

So no. For myself, I don't think I could freebirth unless absolutely necessary. I have very long labors and could make it to a midwife in time. If not a midwife, another home-birthing mother. If not that then just another woman who has at least given birth. Never alone for this woman!

[MrsKitty]

My favorite water birth video of all time has no midwives/doctors/doulas in attendance, but she certainly is not alone. There were several women, a few men, and one of the women had recently also birthed that way at home. It is a truly beautiful video, and I can pass the link on if you are interested.


However it is not for me. I would be too worried that something would start to go wrong, and I would not recognize it. I don't have a circle of home birthing mothers around me to realize if something is not right. I feel like I would constantly second geuss myself and become very distraught. So I will be having two midwives at my home birth, and that works for our family.

My birth mom does freebirthing. She has her partner and her children there. I don't quite agree with her method, because if something were to go wrong, they don't agree with phones being near children (they definately would not turn one on during labor), they live out in the middle of the wilderness, and the closest hospital is two islands away. If something happened, that would be it. There would be no last minute decision to seek help, and she is in her 40's now. It makes me nervous for her children.

All this being said... I was told by the midwives that in worst case scenario (that being that both midwives at my practice are at another birth and they are unable to find another midwife in my city while I am in labor) that I would be expected to go to the hospital and deliver with an OBGYN. I started wondering at that, if in that case, if I would go. I am sure I would, but the thought has crossed my mind several times that I might just stay put. Afterall if women deliver in cars... and I am a five minute drive from the hospital.

[MoonBound]

I couldn't, I hemoraged badly with ds2 and worried I would with others, I go into labor too early for a midwife to deliver (in my state) even. But if my dad hadn't driven around that train the first time he would've delivered his grandson. If that's what a woman wants then that her choice, but I'd be too worried.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Mrs. Kitty, freebirthing would not be for me either. I don't want to have to pay attention to what is happening. I *did* pay attention, with Sergei...I knew that I was fully dilated and I knew that I was pushing. My midwife did nothing, actually, until he was actually crowning. She sat in the living room floor (my birthing tub was in the kitchen) reading a book and throwing out a "Great job!" after a particularly hard contraction.

But she was there to take charge when needed, which is what I wanted. When he was crowning and his shoulders were stuck--his shoulders were the same circumference as his head--she knew what to do. When the umbilical cord snapped before the placeta had been delivered, she worked with me to get the placenta out.

I didn't want to have to have the presence of mind to deal with things like that. I didn't want it to be on my dh's shoulders or one of the birth attendants. So, for me, my midwife was invaluable and I love her dearly.

With that said, not everyone feels the same way that I do or has the same needs. If someone feels that freebirthing is the choice that they are drawn to that's good for me.

ETA: I can say, though, that if my only choices were a hospital birth or a freebirth that I would choose the latter.

[MrsKitty]

ETA: I can say, though, that if my only choices were a hospital birth or a freebirth that I would choose the latter.


This is how I feel. However I would not know until I was in labor if this was happening. My midwife said it was so rare that I shouldn't worry about it, but I just have this sinking feeling that I would be the "one person that year" that ends up in the hospital because all the midwives were busy.

Soooo I am adding several books to my reading pile..just in case.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Unassisted Childbirth by (I think) Laura Shanly is good. It's very inspiring. I read it while pregnant with Seryozha.

[blessedbythree]

I've had three hospital births and if I have another biological child I will do a homebirth. I'm not sure I'm ready for a freebirth though. I think I'd like the comfort of knowing a midwife was around. I'm just really done with the whole hospital birth thing. Way to medical and unnatural for this natural childbirth woman.

[nicurn]

I think freebirth is tantamount to refusing medical care for a child, and should be prosecuted as medical neglect.

Aproximately 10% of all births require some form of professional intervention to ensure the safety of mother and child. In countries where no professional intervention is available, maternal and infant morbidity and mortality are actually higher than 10%.

Why choose an activity with a 10% chance of causing serious harm to yourself, your child or both?

[VegasLactivist]

Only one of the moms in Freebirthing, to me, seemed truly prepared and ready. The other two, not so much.

UA is not for me. I adore my midwives, and doulas so rock, and I wouldn't want to birth without them.

[Indigo]

I could not do it. I think it's too important to have help in case of issue. The risk is just too high.
I do understand why people do it. I think the thing that struck me about the video was that the labors were so short. The comfort and lack of stress is likely the reason. That is a really striking idea.

[Indigo]

I think freebirth is tantamount to refusing medical care for a child, and should be prosecuted as medical neglect.

Aproximately 10% of all births require some form of professional intervention to ensure the safety of mother and child. In countries where no professional intervention is available, maternal and infant morbidity and mortality are actually higher than 10%.

Why choose an activity with a 10% chance of causing serious harm to yourself, your child or both?


What percentage of risk do routine hospital interventions interject into the process for both mother and baby? Not to mention infection risk? I strongly disagree that there should be legal prosecution for refusing any medical treatment. All options carry risk, it is not up to a professional to decide which is the more acceptable one. It's up the the individual or the parent.

[CatSoup]

Teresa and Vegas, Do you have a link to what you watched?

I'm going to wait as long as I can to go in to the hospital this time. I was induced with Ds1. With Ds2 I had been in labor for months (literally, I was on meds to stop it) and was at 5 cm when I went in. I would like to try without an epidural, but IDK if I've got the guts.

[HammBugga]

Only one of the moms in Freebirthing, to me, seemed truly prepared and ready. The other two, not so much.

UA is not for me. I adore my midwives, and doulas so rock, and I wouldn't want to birth without them.


Actually I think two of them were ready. The first lady was so freaking awesome and awe inspiring. The second girl should have been thrown is jail and the third lady had everything ready but her mindset.

It is not something I would consider, given my history, but I wouldn't condemn it for someone else who knew the risks. That second girl though, she was a dumb ass and is damn lucky to be alive.

[The_Market]

I think freebirth is tantamount to refusing medical care for a child, and should be prosecuted as medical neglect.

I've refused medical care for my child. You think I should be prosecuted for that?

[CatSoup]

Actually I think two of them were ready. The first lady was so freaking awesome and awe inspiring. The second girl should have been thrown is jail and the third lady had everything ready but her mindset.

It is not something I would consider, given my history, but I wouldn't condemn it for someone else who knew the risks. That second girl though, she was a dumb ass and is damn lucky to be alive.


Do you have a link?
I looked on YouTube but mostly just found water birth videos and a video of a cat cleaning itself. lol Not exactly informative.

[RaisingThemLeft]

I'm with Sasha. Freebirthing doesn't bother me like it bothers some people here but it isn't for me. I had hospital births but would have preferred homebirths. If I had another child (not happening) I would homebirth. I would want a midwife there because I really wouldn't want to have to pay enough attention and have enough presense of mind to handle an emergency. I want to just be in my zone. When ds 3 was born, I pulled him onto my chest, not realizing he had a short cord and the cord snapped. We were planning on waiting to clamp the cord until after the Placenta was delivered and the cord stopped pulsing. Well, obviously that plan had to change. It wasn't dire, but the midwife did have to very quickly clamp the cord. I don't think my reaction time at that point would have been so great and dh wasn't into handling medical emergencies either.

I think some people can do it but it's not for me. I feel like it's safest to have a midwife attend the homebirth but I think the level of outrage I have seen expressed by some people (not on this thread, I haven't even read it yet) is hypocritical unless they express the same level of outrage over women who choose to have interventions that are not medically warrented and not backed up by statistics as having a positive outcome on mother and baby.

[The_Market]

Honestly, I don't understand the choice not to have a midwife at a homebirth when that is an option. I just don't see why anyone thinks that's better.

I can see why someone would put UC over hospital birth.

If I were to have another baby (which is extremely unlikley) I would homebirth with a midwife. I have many friends in the birth community and at least one that I would invite to even catch the baby. However, none of them are actually midwives, so I would hire one to sit in the room and be there "just in case".

I think it is the safest thing for a normal, low risk birth.

[nicurn]

I've refused medical care for my child. You think I should be prosecuted for that?


I don't know your specific situation. Was the medical care easily obtainable? Did it carry significant risks? What potential harm was there in refusing? Did you seek alternative care?

[Teresa64]

I can't remember watch channel "Freebirth" came on and I just did a search for it and can't find it sorry.

On other notes...my opinion was that the first one was well prepared. Second one not so much. Third one a little better but not much. I would never do it and I really don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to have a midwife(or other) at least present in case of an emergancy.

[Teresa64]

ahh. Found it on discovery health. It gives info on the show but doesn't show another time it will be on.

http://health.discovery.com/tv/crib-notes/freebirthing.html

[VegasLactivist]

Hamm, the 2nd girl was a NUTJOB.

[Indigo]

I don't know your specific situation. Was the medical care easily obtainable? Did it carry significant risks? What potential harm was there in refusing? Did you seek alternative care?

Who gets to decide all of these things? Why would a medical professional's opinion of what should be done trump the patient or their parent? There have been many times when I have have disagreed with a medical recommendation and refused treatment for both myself and my child. I have refused vaccinations, surgeries, medications and treatments. That is my right.
Yes the care was always easily available but was not preferable to letting nature take it's course or trying home comfort measures or simply doing nothing. I have also consented to plenty of things I did think were necessary. Medical help is very valuable, but I can't believe forced medical care is something that you can actually advocate especially in a system where drs are getting rewarded for selling drugs and procedures, and many routine items are in place despite lack of evidence to support their efficacy. Woudl you really advocate that people making informed decisions about their family's care should face legal actions? At who's call? Some doctor or nurse the family disagrees with? I can see this harming a lot of well informed people and not helping many at all. You hire a medical professional for their expertise and skills, you then get to decide if you want to take that advice. Having people charged for disagreeing with their dr won' help anyone, and will likely raise the lawsuits. I could definitely see suing over a procedure or medication I didn't think was a good choice but was forced into. How completely violating and overstepping.

[Teresa64]

Hamm, the 2nd girl was a NUTJOB.


I have to give her credit for courage. Because I couldn't give birth alone but she did seem rather flaky if you ask me.

[HammBugga]

That wasn't courage, it was pure stupidity. She was too stupid to be scared.

[HammBugga]

ahh. Found it on discovery health. It gives info on the show but doesn't show another time it will be on.

http://health.discovery.com/tv/crib-notes/freebirthing.html


Yeah it was on discovery health last week. I did a search on my Directv to see when it will be on again but it came up with no results. That pretty much means it won't be on in the next few weeks.

[VegasLactivist]

That wasn't courage, it was pure stupidity. She was too stupid to be scared.


The thing that she said that REALLY scared me was "How long can a baby go without breathing before it dies? 20 minutes right? 15 minutes? 10 minutes?"

And the midwife left that house shaking her head and scared for her baby.

[nicurn]

Who gets to decide all of these things? Why would a medical professional's opinion of what should be done trump the patient or their parent? There have been many times when I have have disagreed with a medical recommendation and refused treatment for both myself and my child. I have refused vaccinations, surgeries, medications and treatments. That is my right.
Yes the care was always easily available but was not preferable to letting nature take it's course or trying home comfort measures or simply doing nothing. I have also consented to plenty of things I did think were necessary. Medical help is very valuable, but I can't believe forced medical care is something that you can actually advocate especially in a system where drs are getting rewarded for selling drugs and procedures, and many routine items are in place despite lack of evidence to support their efficacy. Woudl you really advocate that people making informed decisions about their family's care should face legal actions? At who's call? Some doctor or nurse the family disagrees with? I can see this harming a lot of well informed people and not helping many at all. You hire a medical professional for their expertise and skills, you then get to decide if you want to take that advice. Having people charged for disagreeing with their dr won' help anyone, and will likely raise the lawsuits. I could definitely see suing over a procedure or medication I didn't think was a good choice but was forced into. How completely violating and overstepping.


Adults can make informed (or ignorant) decisions about their own health. They have that right. I do not believe that anyone has the right to deny another person the best chance for the healthiest life, even if they are a parent.

You ask who gets to decide. Currently, it's a team of medical professionals, legal professionals and community members...it's called an Ethics Committee. Parents do not have the right to force their children to suffer and die because they want to "let nature take its course" simply because they are parents, any more than they have the right to actively kill their child.

I never specified "doctor" or "hospital". I specified "professional." How is a homebirth attended by a lay midwife who is trained in emergency care in any way more risky than UC?

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

The AMA, if I recall, is now advocating legislation to go after parents who choose to birth at home instead of just midwives (in states with sticky midwife laws).

[Babyblue]

I wouldn't ever choose to give birth with out some person who was trained in cpr and the bare necessitates of child birth, be that my dh or one of my siblings. I however doubt I will ever have a home birth, not unless labor is ultra fast and I birth alone. In the case of birthing alone I wouldn't call for an ambulance because there are many cases in my area of the emergency personal sending momma to one hospital and baby to the other. I can wait the 5 more min for my dh to get home and he could drive me. However if baby was not breathing and my efforts weren't helping then I would call an ambulance.

[RaisingThemLeft]

Adults can make informed (or ignorant) decisions about their own health. They have that right. I do not believe that anyone has the right to deny another person the best chance for the healthiest life, even if they are a parent.

Parents do not have the right to force their children to suffer and die because they want to "let nature take its course" simply because they are parents, any more than they have the right to actively kill their child.



The thing is, when you are talking about childbirth, you are talking about taking away a parent's decision over something that *might* happen. Chances are, everything will be fine. We aren't talking about denying medical treatment to a sick child. There is a lot of grey area here. Also, currently we really don't have statistics to back up that hospital birth is any safer than UC. I'm not saying it's not, but we don't really know. We do have statistics to show that homebirth with a midwife is at least as safe, if not safer than, hospital birth for low risk moms and babies.

[HammBugga]

The thing that she said that REALLY scared me was "How long can a baby go without breathing before it dies? 20 minutes right? 15 minutes? 10 minutes?"

And the midwife left that house shaking her head and scared for her baby.

I know right? 20 fucking minutes? Are you kidding me? And she was just sitting around waiting for her placenta to fall out. It had been hours and she was like "I hope it comes out soon...."

What a fuckwad.

[nicurn]

Also, currently we really don't have statistics to back up that hospital birth is any safer than UC. I'm not saying it's not, but we don't really know.

Wha-huh? Of course there are statistics regarding UC. Here's one (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/244/24/2741):

Planned home deliveries by lay-midwives resulted in three neonatal deaths per 1,000 live births; planned home deliveries without a lay-midwife, 30 neonatal deaths per 1,000 live births; and unplanned home deliveries, 120 neonatal deaths per 1,000 live births.

If you need the stats on how homebirth and hospital birth are equivalent in safety, I can provide them. However, I think this is at least an indication that UC is 10 times more dangerous than assisted homebirth. Fits with the "10% of births require intervention".

The risk of having an accident while driving is lower than 10%. Are we inhibiting parents' rights by forcing them to use carseats?

[pumpkinhead7]

I would never choose to freebirth. Given the choice, I'd prefer a homebirth or in a free standing birth centre.

Market: I had hospital births because they were free. I would have had to pay out of pocket for a midwife. I couldn't afford a midwife and if I were the type who was terrifyed to birth in a hospital (and I can think of many good reasons to fear a hospital birth) I can see why someone might resort to a UC.

With the rise of resistant Staph, Strep, E.coli and Enterococcus infections, hospitals just aren't safe places for healthy moms and babies these days.

[Indigo]

Adults can make informed (or ignorant) decisions about their own health. They have that right. I do not believe that anyone has the right to deny another person the best chance for the healthiest life, even if they are a parent.

You ask who gets to decide. Currently, it's a team of medical professionals, legal professionals and community members...it's called an Ethics Committee. Parents do not have the right to force their children to suffer and die because they want to "let nature take its course" simply because they are parents, any more than they have the right to actively kill their child.

I never specified "doctor" or "hospital". I specified "professional." How is a homebirth attended by a lay midwife who is trained in emergency care in any way more risky than UC?

But who is to say that the recommendation in any given person or committee is actually for the good of the person involved? We have seen many examples of professionals and others giving horrible advice with regard to infant feeding. Should parents be forced to formula feed because they are using the FDR and mom is taking a med that is an L1 or L2 in Hales, but that book is not used in many places?
You assertion that others should make these decisions for parents they disagree with is a very slippery slope. If medicine was infallable or drs really knew best for each individual then I could agree with it, but so often it comes down to a difference in philosophy or a conflict of interest. Taking away one's right to decide what is right for them and their children is wrong. It would have very scary effects on health care.
What happens when time for committee meetings is not available? There is so much wrong with this plan that it's scary. The idea that a medical professional feels they should be able to force me to do something to my child is highly offensive to me.
I recall a recent thread in which a baby was checked out of your NICU because the mother asked for tube feeding and your hospital wouldn't or couldn't not provide that. There is far too much evidence that bottle feeding can cause feeding issues to take this lightly and there are many reasonable alternatives to doing so. Yet the medical recommendation was counter to the mother's very reasonable concerns. I am speaking of the little you shared about the situation here, so there may be more to this situation. Should you have been able to force this mother into staying and abiding by the potentially detrimental practices of the NICU? There is simply too much subjectivity is what is actually best for a patient for it to be enforceable by law.

Parents do have that right for religious reasons. Why is that anymore valid than informed medical decisions that are not spiritually based?

FWIW I am not for UCing. I just STRONGLY disagree with your assertion that choice in medicine should be taken from patients. I am a strong advocate of informed consent.

[pawprint]

Like many others on this thread I would not choose to UC but support one's right to do so. When legal midwifery options become unavailable UC becomes an option people may not have otherwise considered.

I contracted an intestinal parasite in a hospital and literally nearly starved to death. I have no plans to ever go to a hospital again outside of a dire emergency. If my choices were UC or hospital I would have a hard time choosing to become pregnant again.

[Indigo]

The AMA, if I recall, is now advocating legislation to go after parents who choose to birth at home instead of just midwives (in states with sticky midwife laws).

Exactly despite what the evidence says.

[Wildf1ower]

nicurn, if those stats are accurate, that is truly scary. I think the idea of a "freebirth" is all very nice and 'romantic', but it's too risky, and if people think a 3% chance of losing their baby isn't a big deal, then they are much more confident than me, because I would be scared to be one of those 3%. There are some very educated women who do this, and for them maybe it isn't so dangerous (maybe they are the ones who help bring that risk down to 3% from 10% in the last group) but the idiots like Hamm was talking about (or Fuckwads, lol) seem like the type who just hear from others that hospital births are BAD and homebirths are better but if you want to be one of the real hipsters, then do UC - and I have no respect for those types.

I really dislike hearing people talk about "Hospital Births" like they are all the same, because they are NOT all bad or all equal. Maybe the really good ones are the exception to the rule, or maybe they aren't, but I loved both of my hospital births. Roomed in 100%, nurses pretty much left me alone, they didn't give me a hard time about not vaxing, peds came to the room to do any exams (so baby never had to leave my side), breastfeeding greatly encouraged with lots of support, etc., and the french toast I got delivered to my room each morning was AWESOME ;) (the pancakes sucked, though) Paw, your experience, though... that is awful! :( I'm glad I didn't read that before or I wouldn't have been able to enjoy that french toast so much! I don't know, maybe it's because I don't get as much support at home as others do, but being away from home for a few days to do nothing but enjoy my baby was really nice. Anyway, just had to say that :)

[The_Market]

I would like to try without an epidural, but IDK if I've got the guts.
It's way easier to go w/o an epidural if you have to get in the car to go get one. lol I had no trouble going natural out of the hospital, but have no faith in my ability to go natural in a hospital. I say, get a doula...but I may be biased.

I don't know your specific situation. Was the medical care easily obtainable? Did it carry significant risks? What potential harm was there in refusing? Did you seek alternative care?
Let's see, the thing I actually had to sign forms for was refusing the vit K and eye ointment.

Easily obtainable? Absolutely
Significant risk? Well, clearly I did not think so, but some people do. Parents have had CPS called and children removed over refusing the stuff. Far more people have been threatened with such into it.
Potential harm? A serious eye infection...blindness, I suppose. Bleeding to death, possibly, or an essentially preventable rare blood disorder.
No, I did not seek alternative care.

I don't understand the desire for UC, any more than the desire for elective c-section. Frankly, as a risk assessment goes, I'd say they are comparable. I mean, I'm willing to bet the unecessary risk incurred is at least comparable. You want to prosecute those people? Or maybe the doctors who perform the surgery?

I'm too big an advocate of patients rights to want to criminalize anything 90% safe.

[nicurn]

I recall a recent thread in which a baby was checked out of your NICU because the mother asked for tube feeding and your hospital wouldn't or couldn't not provide that. There is far too much evidence that bottle feeding can cause feeding issues to take this lightly and there are many reasonable alternatives to doing so. Yet the medical recommendation was counter to the mother's very reasonable concerns. I am speaking of the little you shared about the situation here, so there may be more to this situation.

There was more, and I did share it. We have no problem offering gavage feedings if a mother is occasionally unable to be present for feedings. This infant was failing to grow because of very poor feeding ability, and the mother, while refusing bottles, could not be bothered to show up for more than two feedings a day. When an infant with feeding issues actually asks to eat, they shouldn't be told, "No" more than once or twice a day. This mother's decisions were harmful to her child, and her response to us encouraging (not forcing) her to either become more available or let us use alternate feeding practices, was to check her child out AMA.

Her choice for her child had nothing to do with her child's best interest; she was simply tired of trekking down to the hospital. Since she didn't return to us for follow-up, I have no idea if the child did well, poorly, or is buried in the back yard.

FWIW, current research leans away from the theory that bottles in and of themselves interfere with breastfeeding. In fact, it is flow of feeding, whether given by cup, spoon, bottle, or SNS, that interferes. When a bottle with the proper flow is used occasionally, complications are extremely rare.


FWIW I am not for UCing. I just STRONGLY disagree with your assertion that choice in medicine should be taken from patients. I am a strong advocate of informed consent.

Where did I discourage informed consent? Where did I insist that people must obey their doctors? I'm talking about a specific activity that exponentially increases the risk to the infant's life, and which in no case actually increases their chance for safe, healthy delivery. Statistically speaking, it's a bad, dangerous decision.


Let's see, the thing I actually had to sign forms for was refusing the vit K and eye ointment.

Easily obtainable? Absolutely
Significant risk? Well, clearly I did not think so, but some people do. Parents have had CPS called and children removed over refusing the stuff. Far more people have been threatened with such into it.
Potential harm? A serious eye infection...blindness, I suppose. Bleeding to death, possibly, or an essentially preventable rare blood disorder.
No, I did not seek alternative care.

I don't understand the desire for UC, any more than the desire for elective c-section. Frankly, as a risk assessment goes, I'd say they are comparable. I mean, I'm willing to bet the unecessary risk incurred is at least comparable. You want to prosecute those people? Or maybe the doctors who perform the surgery?

I'm too big an advocate of patients rights to want to criminalize anything 90% safe.


I see a world of difference between refusing a specific, non-critical intervention, and creating a patently unsafe environment for your child. There may be some benefit to avoiding the interventions you avoided. What are the benefits (to the child) of avoiding the presence of a lay-midwife during homebirth?

[The_Market]

I see a world of difference between refusing a specific, non-critical intervention, and creating a patently unsafe environment for your child. There may be some benefit to avoiding the interventions you avoided. What are the benefits (to the child) of avoiding the presence of a lay-midwife during homebirth?
I'm at a loss as to why a person would choose UC when having a midwife attended homebirth is an option, but what about when that's not an option?

When the choice is between a very medically minded, intervention laden hospital environment and UC? I would say both are at least equally "patently unsafe" for a low risk mom.

Or if the choice is between UC and unecessary c-section?

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Why would a person choose a UC over a lay midwife? Finances could play a factor. I paid my midwife out of pocket, as lay midwives are illegal in my state. I paid her $1650. A hospital birth would have been paid for by insurance but I didn't want to have a hospital birth.

But if I wasn't able to scrape up that money I would have been faced with choosing a UC or a hospital birth.

I know that there are philosophical reasons why my friends have chosen UC, but the financial reason is certainly one to think about as well.

[still_me]

Teresa and Vegas, Do you have a link to what you watched?

I'm going to wait as long as I can to go in to the hospital this time. I was induced with Ds1. With Ds2 I had been in labor for months (literally, I was on meds to stop it) and was at 5 cm when I went in. I would like to try without an epidural, but IDK if I've got the guts.


You don't have to go completely natural. I had nubain for both of the boys. With DS1 I had it and it made me sick at first, but I got better. I actually was sleeping in between contractions. From beginning to end it was 4hrs.

Now, with DS2 I told the nurse that I am easily affected by drugs (Benadryl makes me loopy) so she gave me a "smaller dose" of nubain. Well, lucky for me, it was too small of a dose and I had him natural. I WISH I had a doula then because I couldn't ground myself at all. DS2 was born a little over 2hrs (start to finish).


Back on topic. :)
I couldn't freebirth. I need a little more security in the back of my mind. I do understand why people do it and I respect that, but it still scares me.

I know a couple who had their last 2 at home and the first one at a hospital. They had a midwife for the second one and S did it all with the third. They both said that now, they will go to a hospital if they have a 4th just because it was overwhelming doing it alone.

[trylyn5]

A friend of mind had her first 4 with at home with a midwife, her 5th with the midwife on call but her dh delivered, and now her 6th at a hospital due to some issues with cps. The first 5 had no problems. Number 6 spent 12 hours in the NICU.

[CatSoup]

You don't have to go completely natural. I had nubain for both of the boys. With DS1 I had it and it made me sick at first, but I got better. I actually was sleeping in between contractions. From beginning to end it was 4hrs.

Now, with DS2 I told the nurse that I am easily affected by drugs (Benadryl makes me loopy) so she gave me a "smaller dose" of nubain. Well, lucky for me, it was too small of a dose and I had him natural. I WISH I had a doula then because I couldn't ground myself at all. DS2 was born a little over 2hrs (start to finish).


Back on topic. :)
I couldn't freebirth. I need a little more security in the back of my mind. I do understand why people do it and I respect that, but it still scares me.

I know a couple who had their last 2 at home and the first one at a hospital. They had a midwife for the second one and S did it all with the third. They both said that now, they will go to a hospital if they have a 4th just because it was overwhelming doing it alone.

I'm sensitive to meds too. I don't want to be too sleepy during labor.
I would feel safe if my mom was there to deliver. She actually delivered two of her 8 grandbabies at the hospital because the Dr didn't make it in time.

[CatSoup]

It's way easier to go w/o an epidural if you have to get in the car to go get one. lol I had no trouble going natural out of the hospital, but have no faith in my ability to go natural in a hospital. I say, get a doula...but I may be biased.


I'm always amazed and impressed with women who do it naturally. Then I think about people like my grandmother who did it 11 times! Truly amazing.

Who knows, maybe I can do it with out an ep. The contractions I was having before they gave it to me with Eli were actually alot less painful than the ones I had been having throughout the previous months.

[Teresa64]

I'm sensitive to meds too. I don't want to be too sleepy during labor.
I would feel safe if my mom was there to deliver. She actually delivered two of her 8 grandbabies at the hospital because the Dr didn't make it in time.


I'll admit it. I had an epidural with both my boys. With ds1 they managed to get it in 10 minutes before he was born. With ds2 I got it earlier but somehow it quit working 10minutes before he was born...lol

Needless to say ds2 was born before the dr came too. 2 pushes as the nurse was telling me to stop pushing and I wasn't "allowed" to push until the dr came. She almost didn't catch him he came out so fast.

Both of my boys had some fetal distress during labor heart rates dropping and ds2 had the cord around his neck. I would be to afraid to not be in the hospital for the birth of my babies but then I have a great relationship with my ob. He is wonderful and has great respect for women.

One thing he said that acually hooked me was during one of my check ups. He asked if I had any questions about the delivery and then said that he would answer as best as he could because I probably know more about what labor is like then him as he has never experienced it.

I have not problems with homebirths and think its great that woman do it. I have a lot of respect for them but UC seems a little to risky. But I guess I can see why people do it.

[pumpkinhead7]

I'm always amazed and impressed with women who do it naturally. Then I think about people like my grandmother who did it 11 times! Truly amazing.

Who knows, maybe I can do it with out an ep. The contractions I was having before they gave it to me with Eli were actually alot less painful than the ones I had been having throughout the previous months.

There's really nothing amazing about it :). I personally believe that what will get you through your labour in less time and in less pain is essentially No Fear. Fear makes you tense. When you're tense during labour, this hurts more. It also lessens your abiltiy to dilate properly. We are mammals. In the wild, if a mammal feels afraid and threatened, she can actually "undilate" and delay her labour. We're not that much different.

In a hospital for some women, the only way to truly relax is to get an epidural.

This is why homebirthing works so much better for some. Hospitals are unfamiliar environments for most of us. We give up a lot of control by entering one in order to give birth. For most of us, this adds an element of fear and the unknown.

This wasn't the case for me. I had fabulous hospital births and I didn't have epidurals.

[nicurn]

I'm at a loss as to why a person would choose UC when having a midwife attended homebirth is an option, but what about when that's not an option?

When the choice is between a very medically minded, intervention laden hospital environment and UC? I would say both are at least equally "patently unsafe" for a low risk mom.

Or if the choice is between UC and unecessary c-section?


Market, the statistics don't bear out your theory. Hospital birth is no less safe than homebirth for a low-risk mom. The risks are different but overall mortality is pretty equivalent.

UC has a tenfold risk of mortality over either. As unpleasant as hospital birth may be to some, it is much, much safer than UC, for the low risk mom. For unidentified high risk moms whose philosphic leanings have led to inadequate prenatal care...

:shudder:

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Honest question--does the 10% mortality risk make allowances for the proverbial 15 year old who gives birth in the toilet or are the statistics somehow separated between those former scenarios (the crack head who didn't know she was pregnant and whatnot) and the person who informs themselves and chooses a UC?

[CatSoup]

There's really nothing amazing about it :). I personally believe that what will get you through your labour in less time and in less pain is essentially No Fear. Fear makes you tense. When you're tense during labour, this hurts more. It also lessens your abiltiy to dilate properly. We are mammals. In the wild, if a mammal feels afraid and threatened, she can actually "undilate" and delay her labour. We're not that much different.

In a hospital for some women, the only way to truly relax is to get an epidural.

This is why homebirthing works so much better for some. Hospitals are unfamiliar environments for most of us. We give up a lot of control by entering one in order to give birth. For most of us, this adds an element of fear and the unknown.

This wasn't the case for me. I had fabulous hospital births and I didn't have epidurals.

I can with that. My cat held in her kittens for a whole week past the standard time because we had just gotten a dog. The vet said it was the equivalent of a person being a month overdue. lol Somehow I always relate life to cats.

[nicurn]

Honest question--does the 10% mortality risk make allowances for the proverbial 15 year old who gives birth in the toilet or are the statistics somehow separated between those former scenarios (the crack head who didn't know she was pregnant and whatnot) and the person who informs themselves and chooses a UC?


The NC study statistic I was quoting was for planned UC. There were three deaths from planned homebirths, 30 deaths from planned UC, and 120 deaths from unplanned UC. Causative factors were absolutely accounted for. The link is in the original post.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Thanks, Nicurn. As soon as I get the Fussy and Wiggly Seryozha settled down I'll read that.

[Babyblue]

There's really nothing amazing about it :). I personally believe that what will get you through your labour in less time and in less pain is essentially No Fear. Fear makes you tense. When you're tense during labour, this hurts more. It also lessens your abiltiy to dilate properly. We are mammals. In the wild, if a mammal feels afraid and threatened, she can actually "undilate" and delay her labour. We're not that much different.

In a hospital for some women, the only way to truly relax is to get an epidural.

This is why homebirthing works so much better for some. Hospitals are unfamiliar environments for most of us. We give up a lot of control by entering one in order to give birth. For most of us, this adds an element of fear and the unknown.

This wasn't the case for me. I had fabulous hospital births and I didn't have epidurals.


horses can actualy stop hard labor, right up to the pushing stage, for at least a week if something scares them.

[AlrightyRoo]

horses can actualy stop hard labor, right up to the pushing stage, for at least a week if something scares them.

That is a mammal thing, not just a horse thing. :) Humans can do that too.

[VegasLactivist]

My midwife had a mom who was in labor, entering into transition when her MIL showed up at her house, and let herself in through the garage. She walked into the birthing room, and well, lets just say, they did not have a good relatiosnhip. She announced, "This is my grandchild and you cannot keep me from being at the birth!" as if she had some inherrent right to be there.

That woman brought so much stress and bad energy into that home that mama's cervix closed back down to a 2 from an 8, and it was 2 more full days until baby came. Thank GOD the bag of waters was still intact to protect baby.

Husband had to forcibly remove his mother from his home, and lock her out, then call his father to get her off his yard. Then spend a full day calming his wife, and cleansing their enviornment, so that her body would return to labor.

Baby was born perfectly fine and healthy, and mama had her home waterbirth with only her midwife, her doula, and her husband with her.

But yeah, it isn't just horses!

[CatSoup]

OMG VL I would have killed her! Some people!

[MrsKitty]

Oh gosh. I wouldn't be able to deal with that stress VL. How horrible!

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

Tami, I don't think it's any coincidence that my worst and most painful labor--with my smallest child--was the one in which my MIL burst in on.

You'd think that giving birth to a 7 lb 1 oz baby would be easier than a baby who weighed 8 lbs 14 oz, but that wasn't the case for me.

[HammBugga]

That is outrageous Tami. I would have killed her.

[Meredith]

I'm sensitive to meds too. I don't want to be too sleepy during labor.

I know this is just slightly off topic, but I had no medication whatsoever during my labor with Dax, and I was nodding off in between contractions. ;) It's actually not uncommon for women to fall asleep between contractions when having a completely unmedicated labor. Your body works really hard during labor, so it makes sense that you'd start to fall asleep. I'd also been in labor for 15 hours at that point, and combine with that the lack of sleep that comes with late pregnancy, it's understandable.

Actually, I think the little cat naps I had between contractions may have helped me rest up for pushing later on.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Like most on this thread, I wouldn't plan a UC. However, I don't think I'd ever be faced with the decision between a hospital birth or a UC homebirth. If I were, I would have a very difficult time choosing the hospital birth.

[KerryS]

I'm against it. In almost all cases, I consider it selfish in the extreme.

I held this same opinion in even my most crunchy, homebirthing, pre-RN days.

[KerryS]

Honestly, I don't understand the choice not to have a midwife at a homebirth when that is an option. I just don't see why anyone thinks that's better.

This is exactly my opinion.

[KerryS]

That wasn't courage, it was pure stupidity. She was too stupid to be scared.


Exactly.

[AlrightyRoo]

I could never bring myself to choose UC. If the only choice were between UC and hospital birth, it would be sooooo difficult, but I would opt for the hospital. Luckily, I know of an OB in Atlanta 2 hours away from here with a CS rate in the single digits with very good outcomes. And he even delivers twins, VBAmultipleC and vaginal breech! He is who I would go to if I were planning a hospital birth. I know of several people here in town that drove up to see him because he was their best (and only) chance for a VBAC in a hospital.

[HammBugga]

So you are going for a HBA2C Roo? That is awesome.

[AlrightyRoo]

I promised myself that I wasn't going to advertise that here, but I guess I just did, huh? ;)

[The_Market]

I know that there are philosophical reasons why my friends have chosen UC, but the financial reason is certainly one to think about as well.
Can you elaborate on those, please?

[HammBugga]

Yes, yes you did. I wish you nothing but luck. I hope you get that birth. :)

[Teresa64]

Can you elaborate on those, please?

I second this question. Please?:p

[pumpkinhead7]

Can you elaborate on those, please?

I don't know about the philisophical reasons, but I believe I and Sasha both have already elaborated on the financial aspect.

Babies die due to hospital acquired infections that are resistant to antibiotics. If one were afraid of that sort of thing and one could not afford a midwife (in the province I used to live in, midwifery was legal, but only in a homebirth situation and only out of pocket, not covered by MSI) I can see how one might choose a UC out of fear.

[KerryS]

Can you elaborate on those, please?

I'm guessing she's referring to not being able to afford a midwife?

[Indigo]

I don't have time at the moment to get into the rest but in my city, a fairly major city, actually there is only one home birth midwife within 2 hours of the city. The rest are coming from 4+ hours away. I could see this being worse in more rural areas. Where a hospital would be available but the hb midwife may not.
So besides the distance what if you simply don't work well with the only show in town?

[nicurn]

So besides the distance what if you simply don't work well with the only show in town?

Planned UC has 10 times the mortality rate of hospital births for low-risk mothers.

Planned UC has 10 times the mortality rate of hospital births for low-risk mothers.

Planned UC has 10 times the mortality rate of hospital births for low-risk mothers.

Planned UC has 10 times the mortality rate of hospital births for low-risk mothers.


If there is "no other show in town" then you have a hospital birth and advocate to bring better options to your town before your next pregnancy, or you move. Some things in life truly suck, but few things suck as much as babies who die because their parents have placed them in unsafe situations.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

If I had no other choice besides birthing at home unassisted or birthing in a hospital, I would choose the former. Luckily I have a third choice, although my state government doesn't want me to. I'm lucky enough to have women who are willing to break the law in order to provide services that they believe in and the money to pay them.

I realize that I am lucky. Some don't have those options.

As for philosophical reasons, I know some women who believe strongly that birthing is a private event. They feel the need to birth alone or with just their spouse. Those aren't my views but I've heard UC'ers use it as a reason.

[Indigo]

Planned UC has 10 times the mortality rate of hospital births for low-risk mothers.

Planned UC has 10 times the mortality rate of hospital births for low-risk mothers.

Planned UC has 10 times the mortality rate of hospital births for low-risk mothers.

Planned UC has 10 times the mortality rate of hospital births for low-risk mothers.


If there is "no other show in town" then you have a hospital birth and advocate to bring better options to your town before your next pregnancy, or you move. Some things in life truly suck, but few things suck as much as babies who die because their parents have placed them in unsafe situations.
Repeat yourself much? What exactly is the point of that? Again it's the choice of the individual to decide what is acceptable risk.
I am not advocating UC, it's not something I would do, I am an advocate of home birth and choice. I do advocate the right of others to choose their professionals and services. I do advocate not giving more power to medical professionals than parents or individuals. We are consumers of the services and skills the medical professionals, we choose who we see and what of the recommendations we take and follow. Agree or not it is not up to you to decide for individuals what is right for them, it's your job to help those who are there to be helped. Not to legislate who is there.

[Indigo]

If I had no other choice besides birthing at home unassisted or birthing in a hospital, I would choose the former. Luckily I have a third choice, although my state government doesn't want me to. I'm lucky enough to have women who are willing to break the law in order to provide services that they believe in and the money to pay them.

I realize that I am lucky. Some don't have those options.

As for philosophical reasons, I know some women who believe strongly that birthing is a private event. They feel the need to birth alone or with just their spouse. Those aren't my views but I've heard UC'ers use it as a reason.
Nothing prevents a women who chooses this from calling 911 or otherwise seeking help if needed. Forcing unwanted or unneeded help on someone is way overstepping the bounds of the medical community.

[Indigo]

There was more, and I did share it. We have no problem offering gavage feedings if a mother is occasionally unable to be present for feedings. This infant was failing to grow because of very poor feeding ability, and the mother, while refusing bottles, could not be bothered to show up for more than two feedings a day. When an infant with feeding issues actually asks to eat, they shouldn't be told, "No" more than once or twice a day. This mother's decisions were harmful to her child, and her response to us encouraging (not forcing) her to either become more available or let us use alternate feeding practices, was to check her child out AMA.

Her choice for her child had nothing to do with her child's best interest; she was simply tired of trekking down to the hospital. Since she didn't return to us for follow-up, I have no idea if the child did well, poorly, or is buried in the back yard.

FWIW, current research leans away from the theory that bottles in and of themselves interfere with breastfeeding. In fact, it is flow of feeding, whether given by cup, spoon, bottle, or SNS, that interferes. When a bottle with the proper flow is used occasionally, complications are extremely rare.



Where did I discourage informed consent? Where did I insist that people must obey their doctors? I'm talking about a specific activity that exponentially increases the risk to the infant's life, and which in no case actually increases their chance for safe, healthy delivery. Statistically speaking, it's a bad, dangerous decision.




Your assumption that she just couldn't be bothered is coming off as hostile. What else was going on in her life? Does she have other children that need care? Does she have help? Can she bring other children to the NICU? Regardless there is plenty of evidence that bottle feeding does affect feeding issues, if it's important to the mother then why do differently? It is her child and her choice. Did you discuss this options and why you felt they were not a concern for her child? If she hears your reasons and chooses differently than that's it. Your condemning this mother is an uncaring risk taker is concerning. She may be, but you have not given evidence that she is, just that you are willing to insist on things for HER child that she does not want.

You discouraged informed consent when you suggested that parents should be prosecuted for choosing differently than you would. There are plenty of medical procedures and recommendations that are less than 90% safe and are considered acceptable risk. In UC what is the risk? If the parents are trained in infant CPR does that mitigate it? Are there things they can have on hand that do? I am in no way advocating that people take unnecessary risk, I just don't necessarily agree with what that is.

[Indigo]

Why would a person choose a UC over a lay midwife? Finances could play a factor. I paid my midwife out of pocket, as lay midwives are illegal in my state. I paid her $1650. A hospital birth would have been paid for by insurance but I didn't want to have a hospital birth.

But if I wasn't able to scrape up that money I would have been faced with choosing a UC or a hospital birth.

I know that there are philosophical reasons why my friends have chosen UC, but the financial reason is certainly one to think about as well.


I have seen them quote well over $4,000.

[pumpkinhead7]

Honestly, I do believe a UC borders on parental negligence. I can understand some of the reasons why someone would choose to do this, but almost nobody does this. Almost every society there is: developed, tribal, ancient, they all have/had Baby Catchers of some sort. Women rarely birth alone. I don't think we're meant to. I think we're meant to be left alone to labour, but I think experienced hands are meant to guide us in catching our babies.

[nicurn]

Repeat yourself much? What exactly is the point of that?


I've been repeating myself because you keep ignoring the parts of my posts that you don't want to hear. You can argue the relative safety of homebirth and hospital birth until you are blue in the face, but the statistics are very clear that UC has TEN TIMES the mortality rate of either.

Again it's the choice of the individual to decide what is acceptable risk.

Does this mean that you advocate for parents who choose not to use carseats? The mortality rate for those who don't use carseats is lower than that for those who UC. What about parents who choose to live with both their children and a pedophile? That one has an even lower mortality rate.

Your assumption that she just couldn't be bothered is coming off as hostile. What else was going on in her life? Does she have other children that need care? Does she have help? Can she bring other children to the NICU? Regardless there is plenty of evidence that bottle feeding does affect feeding issues, if it's important to the mother then why do differently? It is her child and her choice. Did you discuss this options and why you felt they were not a concern for her child? If she hears your reasons and chooses differently than that's it. Your condemning this mother is an uncaring risk taker is concerning. She may be, but you have not given evidence that she is, just that you are willing to insist on things for HER child that she does not want.

I try very hard to avoid details that might actually identify patients. For the sake of arguement, assume this is a woman with no other children and a nanny waiting to care for her child part-time so that she can continue her social life, as she does not work outside the home. Her sister is available to drive the Hummer to the hospital at a moment's notice, but she feels to tired to make the ride more than once a day, and three hours with her infant is all she can stand. When she was approached with education, she was hostile to receiving it.

It would be negligent of me (and of the physician) not to have carefully explained the risks of 80% gavaging the feedings on a term newborn.

And for the millionth time, we did not insist, we encouraged. Her wishes were being followed, but she got tired of having the risk factors spelled out.


You discouraged informed consent when you suggested that parents should be prosecuted for choosing differently than you would. There are plenty of medical procedures and recommendations that are less than 90% safe and are considered acceptable risk.

No, I would not choose to formula feed, homebirth, or cloth diaper, but I certainly wouldn't dream of wishing people prosecuted who make those choices. I want people to be prosecuted for endangering their children. Risky medical procedures are only carried out when the benefits outweigh the risks (surgery to remove cancer, for example). UC carries no benefits to the infant that outweigh the risks.

In UC what is the risk? If the parents are trained in infant CPR does that mitigate it? Are there things they can have on hand that do? I am in no way advocating that people take unnecessary risk, I just don't necessarily agree with what that is.

Aproximately 10% of ALL births require some form of intervention. A trained professional can identify the need for intervention as it arises and treat the cause, thus mitigating the risk. Do you really need a tutorial on birth pathology from me to understand what those risks are? FTR, CPR is successful aproximately 17% of the time, and neonatal CPR is different from infant, and much, much different from adult CPR. I sincerely doubt that community based training could prepare parents to intervene successfully with an impaired newborn.

And by insisting that anyone lucky enough to get pregnant should have the right to UC, you are indeed advocating that people be able to take unnecessary risk.

[MoonBound]

nicurn, off topic why no cloth diapers?

[Meredith]

I'm curious, Nicurn. Would you support prosecution of parents who refuse the vitK shot, or antibiotics for GBS during labor? One could argue that the parents would be endangering their children by refusing them.

[nicurn]

I'm curious, Nicurn. Would you support prosecution of parents who refuse the vitK shot, or antibiotics for GBS during labor? One could argue that the parents would be endangering their children by refusing them.


There is not the clear and immediate danger to life and limb for refusing those interventions. While there is a risk of morbidity attached, the intervention is primarily to avoid more extreme interventions later (such as hospitalization of the infant for a week with IV antibiotics and occasional intubation with refusing antibiotics for GBS). In the latter case, I find the mother a bit selfish for transferring the treatment to her child, but not prosecutable, no.

A 10% chance of significant morbidity or mortality is a clear and immediate danger.

[nicurn]

nicurn, off topic why no cloth diapers?


I hate to do laundry, and there is no diaper service in my area.

[KerryS]

Your assumption that she just couldn't be bothered is coming off as hostile.

I do agree with this.

When Leo was in the NICU and was finally allowed to take PO nutrition, I was only able to make it to the hospital for two feedings per day (and yes, I insisted that they gavage feed him the other times). The fact that the nurses may have had the attitude that I simply "couldn't be bothered" to come more frequently than that is hurtful to me.

[nicurn]

Kerry, how was Leo discharged home when he was only taking 25% of feedings by mouth?

[Meredith]

Thank you for answering, Nicurn. I understand your reasoning. I was just wondering if you would put them in the same category.

FTR, I agree that UC is extremely risky, and the facts are obviously right there to support that. However, I can't help but wonder if prosecuting the parents who plan UC could somehow, possibly lead to other birth choices (like the ones I mentioned) being prosecuted as well, in the future.

[MoonBound]

Thanks

[KerryS]

Kerry, how was Leo discharged home when he was only taking 25% of feedings by mouth?


He wasn't d/ced to home. He was back-transported to our local hospital for three days, where I was able to sleep in one of the postpartum rooms as a boarder and I was able to stay with him 24/7 for all feedings. They also made many concessions with us that they probably wouldn't have made with another mom, due to the fact that I was an OB nurse and LC.

[KerryS]

FTR, I agree that UC is extremely risky, and the facts are obviously right there to support that. However, I can't help but wonder if prosecuting the parents who plan UC could somehow, possibly lead to other birth choices (like the ones I mentioned) being prosecuted as well, in the future.

I completely disagree with UC and think it's foolish, selfish and risky. However, I don't agree with prosecuting parents who UC. However, I would change my mind in the case of a UC in which a mom or baby died and clear stupidity/negligence played a part.

[Meredith]

I completely disagree with UC and think it's foolish, selfish and risky. However, I don't agree with prosecuting parents who UC. However, I would change my mind in the case of a UC in which a mom or baby died and clear stupidity/negligence played a part.

I have to agree.

[The_Market]

Market, the statistics don't bear out your theory. Hospital birth is no less safe than homebirth for a low-risk mom. The risks are different but overall mortality is pretty equivalent.

Overall, but my examples were unnecessary, scheduled c-section and a high intervention hospital.

I once lived somewhere where there was one hospital and it had a 60% c-section rate, 99% epidural rate, 85% Pitocin rate, would take babies to the nursery while mom was sleeping and give bottles, terrible infection issues, etc. If I had to choose between that hospital and UC, it would be a hard choice indeed.

I'm not convinced that UC would have been more risky for a low risk multipara like myself.

[nicurn]

I'm not convinced that UC would have been more risky for a low risk multipara like myself.


Did you read the study I referenced? It was a retrospective of low-risk deliveries.

[nicurn]

He wasn't d/ced to home. He was back-transported to our local hospital for three days, where I was able to sleep in one of the postpartum rooms as a boarder and I was able to stay with him 24/7 for all feedings. They also made many concessions with us that they probably wouldn't have made with another mom, due to the fact that I was an OB nurse and LC.


Then you are comparing apples to oranges. I'm referring to a specific situation in which a mother with no hindrances repeatedly chose to shop, go to lunches with friends, etc. rather than feed her baby who was hospitalized for feeding issues, all while refusing to allow us to feed him.

If you had beent told that your baby needed only to "learn to eat" and that it wasn't safe for Leo to come home until he'd been able to eat all of every feeding for at least 24 hours, and you were offered to room in, would you insist on continuing to have 6 out of 8 feedings gavaged so that you didn't miss out on any of 4 baby showers?

I'm kind of offended that people are so quick to judge me as a callous, uncaring, abusive nurse. Do I really come accross that way?

[KerryS]

Did you read the study I referenced? It was a retrospective of low-risk deliveries.

True, but I'm guessing that the study wasn't at one particular hospital that had such abysmal intervention rates, the way the hospital Market mentioned, which would have been her only option. In that situation, I'd be willing to bet that Market is correct, and her theoretical odds of having a better outcome unassisted at home are greater.

[KerryS]

Then you are comparing apples to oranges. I'm referring to a specific situation in which a mother with no hindrances repeatedly chose to shop, go to lunches with friends, etc. rather than feed her baby who was hospitalized for feeding issues, all while refusing to allow us to feed him.

If you had beent told that your baby needed only to "learn to eat" and that it wasn't safe for Leo to come home until he'd been able to eat all of every feeding for at least 24 hours, and you were offered to room in, would you insist on continuing to have 6 out of 8 feedings gavaged so that you didn't miss out on any of 4 baby showers?

I'm kind of offended that people are so quick to judge me as a callous, uncaring, abusive nurse. Do I really come accross that way?

I'm not making any comparisons. I simply AGREED with someone else that your post about that woman came off as hostile, and then expressed my consternation that the nurses at the NICU where Leo was may have held the same opinion of me.

[TuetonicWillow]

I completely disagree with UC and think it's foolish, selfish and risky. However, I don't agree with prosecuting parents who UC. However, I would change my mind in the case of a UC in which a mom or baby died and clear stupidity/negligence played a part.




100% agreement except that I might agree to cite UC mothers regardless of birth outcome.

I have to think on it.

[TuetonicWillow]

Adding- citation is not a felonious charge. I do think it (UC) borders on misdemeanor.

[RaisingThemLeft]

Then you are comparing apples to oranges. I'm referring to a specific situation in which a mother with no hindrances repeatedly chose to shop, go to lunches with friends, etc. rather than feed her baby who was hospitalized for feeding issues, all while refusing to allow us to feed him.

If you had beent told that your baby needed only to "learn to eat" and that it wasn't safe for Leo to come home until he'd been able to eat all of every feeding for at least 24 hours, and you were offered to room in, would you insist on continuing to have 6 out of 8 feedings gavaged so that you didn't miss out on any of 4 baby showers?

I'm kind of offended that people are so quick to judge me as a callous, uncaring, abusive nurse. Do I really come accross that way?

I don't think you come accross that way. Having seen the worst, I can see why you'd hold the opinion you do. I don't think that UC is a great idea either, I just don't agree with prosecuting for it.

The woman you are describing sounds like she belongs on The Real Housewives of Orange County. I don't doubt that she was exactly as you say she is. I do find it weird that she was into bfing. Usually those types aren't. In the case of a mother who is so uninterested in being with her baby, I think that ffing (if mom is also not willing or able to pump) is better than not feeding at all. Absolutely.

[The_Market]

Did you read the study I referenced? It was a retrospective of low-risk deliveries.
Yes. And I'm comparing it to all the studies involving the various interventions I mentioned.

I would advocate for neither. I consider UC mostly irresponsible. I also recognize that sometimes it may be the lesser of two "evils".

I can't dream of prosecuting a low risk woman for UC. I mean, have you actually considered the implications of that? Unless the baby dies, you're separating a mother from her newborn (and most people who UC are going to be nursing mothers) and taking her where she will be lucky to be given opportunity to avoid mastitis (let alone maintain a supply). If she has other children, you're subjecting them to watching their parents get arrested, that separation (sometimes of toddlers), and the possibility of becoming wards of the state.

All because the mother looked at a situation, examined the risks of her options, and decided that home was safer than her specific hospital, even w/o a midwife.

Also, if this became a prosecutable offense, what about the people who have illegally practicing lay midwives and -upon transfer- claim they were attempting UC so that their midwife is not at risk of prosecution?

All risks considered, I frankly can't believe someone who would advocate for the right of a woman to schedule an elective c-section would advocate on the other hand for prosecuting parents for choosing UC.

[nicurn]

All risks considered, I frankly can't believe someone who would advocate for the right of a woman to schedule an elective c-section would advocate on the other hand for prosecuting parents for choosing UC.

I'm actually advocating for policy changes in my hospital to make elective c-section unavailable there. I think that purposely endangering a child for the convenience of the parent is reckless endangerment.

And RTL, I'm glad you believe me, since you've seen the population firsthand. I do see a lot of "real housewives" who want to breastfeed because they want to be best at everything. Sadly, they rarely continue once they realize it takes actual commitment.

[AlrightyRoo]

I'm actually advocating for policy changes in my hospital to make elective c-section unavailable there. I think that purposely endangering a child for the convenience of the parent is reckless endangerment.

Would you advocate for those families being held legally liable for choosing an elective c-section for convenience?

[RaisingThemLeft]

I do see a lot of "real housewives" who want to breastfeed because they want to be best at everything. Sadly, they rarely continue once they realize it takes actual commitment.

That was the same thought I had.

[nicurn]

Would you advocate for those families being held legally liable for choosing an elective c-section for convenience?


No, but when the OB laughs about sectioning 34 week twins because the mother "was tired of being pregnant" and says, "That's what the NICU is for!", I think she needs to be held legally liable.

When a medical professional is the one performing the negligent act, then the medical professional needs to be held accountable. When the parent is the one performing the negligent act, then the parent needs to be held accountable.

[Babyblue]

I think an elective c section on a preterm baby is more negligent on the parents part then a very educated and well prepared uc.

I was an emt for years, I helped deliver several babies, I have assisted midwives for my friends births. if one of my sisters would decide to have a home birth, but didn't want a midwife or wanted the midwife to stay in another room, I would be right there for them. would you still think that was neglectful? when the mother has a trained family member or friend instead of a midwife? And help if the trained family member or friend deems it necessary is only a phone call away?

[trylyn5]

No, but when the OB laughs about sectioning 34 week twins because the mother "was tired of being pregnant" and says, "That's what the NICU is for!", I think she needs to be held legally liable.

When a medical professional is the one performing the negligent act, then the medical professional needs to be held accountable. When the parent is the one performing the negligent act, then the parent needs to be held accountable.


This seriously makes me sick. But I can't help but wonder if the OB bothered to tell the mother the risks of 34 week birth. I don't think I know any mothers that weren't tired of being pregnant by then.

[Teresa64]

No, but when the OB laughs about sectioning 34 week twins because the mother "was tired of being pregnant" and says, "That's what the NICU is for!", I think she needs to be held legally liable.

When a medical professional is the one performing the negligent act, then the medical professional needs to be held accountable. When the parent is the one performing the negligent act, then the parent needs to be held accountable.

Who is forcing these educated dr's to perform these c-sections. A dr can refuse to do a v-bac but doesn't deem it risky to deliver babies early for no good medical reason. These situations I would blame the dr first. Parent for lack of sense second.

[KerryS]

Who is forcing these educated dr's to perform these c-sections. A dr can refuse to do a v-bac but doesn't deem it risky to deliver babies early for no good medical reason. These situations I would blame the dr first. Parent for lack of sense second.

That's what she said. The doctor should be held responsible for performing a negligent act.

[The_Market]

I'm guessing she's referring to not being able to afford a midwife?
She said philosophical. I'm wondering what philosophical reasons a person might choose a uc over a midwife attended homebirth.

[The_Market]

Did you read the study I referenced? It was a retrospective of low-risk deliveries.
Yes. Are you understanding that I'm saying the risk ratio might play out differently if you were comparing it to an extreme hospital?

The risk of UC is significantly higher than the average hospital birth. What I'm saying is that I'm not convinced it would be significantly higher than giving birth in the extreme hospital I described.

I was fortunate, however. I did not have to decide between the two extremes. I had the ability to use the birth center 90 minutes from me. It was covered by my insurance, I fell into the narrow range of qualification, and I could afford to drive all the way up there for all my prenatals.

Now, I actually had a fourth choice (besides extreme hospital, UC, or freestanding birth center). I could've chosen homebirth with a midwife. However, this hospital was so bad, that I did not want there to be any chance that I'd end up there (short of an extreme emergency). I was actually concerned that fear of transfer would effect my labor during homebirth.

Since moving here, I have come away from nearly every birth amazed. Even the worst hospital here is so much better than that one!

[Meredith]

She said philosophical. I'm wondering what philosophical reasons a person might choose a uc over a midwife attended homebirth.

I'm just guessing, but I know some people who believe birth is a sacred event that should only be shared between the mother and father, and it's a natural occurrence that is best handled without the intervention or supervision of anyone else. Many other mammals prefer to birth completely alone, without humans or other animals assisting them, and in some cases, human intervention can actually make things worse. This is often applied to human birth as well.

I think Sasha (it was Sasha that said that, right?) may have answered that question a few pages ago, but I'm just throwing out another possible reason.

FTR, I'm not saying I agree with that reason being used to support UC.

[JulieBaby]

I think homebirths are absolutely inspiring, but an unassisted homebirth (aka free birth) is absolutely irresponsible.

IMO, its not even the fact that these women are birthing without the assistance of someone trained to deal with an emergency, but the fact that these women choose to have NO pre natal care.

It is absolutely dangerous. What if a woman has placenta previa, Group B Strep, Chlamydia, etc. etc. What if the baby is coming with some sort of defect that would 'require' a c-section (spina bifida, gastroskesis (sp?)

I would NEVER attempt a homebirth with out at least being up to date on prenatal care, and knowing my baby was well.

[trylyn5]

I think homebirths are absolutely inspiring, but an unassisted homebirth (aka free birth) is absolutely irresponsible.

IMO, its not even the fact that these women are birthing without the assistance of someone trained to deal with an emergency, but the fact that these women choose to have NO pre natal care.

It is absolutely dangerous. What if a woman has placenta previa, Group B Strep, Chlamydia, etc. etc. What if the baby is coming with some sort of defect that would 'require' a c-section (spina bifida, gastroskesis (sp?)

I would NEVER attempt a homebirth with out at least being up to date on prenatal care, and knowing my baby was well.


I don't think UC automatically translates to no prenatal care.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

I agree Meredith. I know that, anecdotally, our sheep prefer to birth alone. They don't want another ewe near them, they don't want human intervention. They know what they're doing and we allow them their space. The same with goats and cows.

Heck, our cat is the same way.

So, while I think there's some wisdom to birthing being an event where the woman is surrounded by attentive, knowledgeable women, it can't be said that birthing is always an event where animals are surrounded by attendants.

Julie, I know several women who UC who did not have an UP. They had prenatal care. But it should be pointed out that I had prenatal care and wouldn't have known any of the things that you listed before birth. I wouldn't have had an ultrasound except that I have had a history of missed m/c.

[nicurn]

Sasha, put away the snark stick before you answer this:

Knowing about conditions such as spina bifida, twin-twin transfusion, hypoplastic left heart, gastrochesis, diaphramatic hernia, etc., how do women peacefully decline US and lab work and then homebirth?

Even with near certainty that my babies were perfectly fine, I couldn't bring myself to homebirth, so I know my anxiety level is in another universe, but I can't picture not knowing and not worrying.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

I don't worry about all of the tiny what-ifs. I assume it's the same way I give my kids only raw dairy products or meat from my backyard instead of the grocery store (where, theoretically, it is handled with uniform sterile guidelines instead of my dh and son doing it themselves), or don't vaccinate. I look at the risk/benefit ratio and don't see any reason to test for everything under the sun (especially when many tests aren't without risk themselves) nor do I spend my time worrying about conditions that probably aren't an issue.

If I have a runny nose I assume, in the absence of other symptoms, that it's simply a cold. I don't worry that I might have TB or pneumonia. I don't feel like I should go get tested for pertussis or scarlet fever. I guess I view other natural events in much the same way.

I think that medicine has its place. I don't use it, though, unless there's a clear need for it In fact, I think that many of the problems with people's health today is *because* of allopathic medicine, not in spite of it.

[KerryS]

She said philosophical. I'm wondering what philosophical reasons a person might choose a uc over a midwife attended homebirth.


I thought she said financial.

[KerryS]

Knowing about conditions such as spina bifida, twin-twin transfusion, hypoplastic left heart, gastrochesis, diaphramatic hernia, etc., how do women peacefully decline US and lab work and then homebirth?

I didn't have an U/S or lab work (other than testing iron levels) and I had a homebirth.

NICURN, you need to understand that in your line of work, all you see are high-risk cases. Your perception is skewed, and you start to think that all or most or even many pregnancies and births are high risk. The fact is, the vast majority of pregnancies and births are low-risk and no complications, and result in a perfectly healthy mom and baby. It's all about playing the odds.

[The_Market]

IMO, its not even the fact that these women are birthing without the assistance of someone trained to deal with an emergency, but the fact that these women choose to have NO pre natal care.

I know Sasha already addressed this, but I wanted to make it clear that many people who UC do have prenatal care. I only know one person who intentionally UCed (to my knowledge) and she had prenatal care with a local homebirth midwife, and that midwife agreed to come if my friend called her in need (and she was otherwise available) for some reason, but she was clear that she was planning UC the whole time.

I was quite nervous about it, but it did go fine (as it was at least 90% likely to). She had 2 other kids. I was giving her a hard time about having no one there to get the kids out of her hair if they bugged her in labor (or out of the way if something went wrong, for that matter). My kids bugged the hell out of me during my third labor!


Knowing about conditions such as spina bifida, twin-twin transfusion, hypoplastic left heart, gastrochesis, diaphramatic hernia, etc., how do women peacefully decline US and lab work and then homebirth?

Since you acknowledge a higher than objective level of anxiety, I'm wondering if you feel any differently about my birth environment risks. It was an independant birth center, completely staffed by CNMs (backed up by Fam Med MDs).

[nicurn]

Market,

I could happily have birthed where you did. I really, really wanted a homebirth, but when I couldn't relax enough to labor "comfortably" I changed my plans.

I would truly love to have Sasha's attitude towards health risks. Maybe I should go back on Prozac or something.

All that said, I still find UC to be reckless endangerment. The one person I know who did it intentionally did not get prenatal care, and had a triple nuchal cord. Newborn pics of her baby show him completely floppy and pale, but she didn't even know enough to know there had been a problem. As a friend, I got to be the one to tell her that her baby had clear neurological problems (at 4 months he still hadn't seen a doctor). I know that she's probably an extreme case, but this activity is the right you are fighting for.

[BeachMama]

While I do not think that unattended childbirth is a good idea, I still think that it should be the woman's choice. Just like I think c-sections by choice, rather than necessity, are unwise, I have to support a womans right to birth how she chooses.

So, I don't agree with the choice, but I support the right to have that choice.

[The_Market]

While I do not think that unattended childbirth is a good idea, I still think that it should be the woman's choice. Just like I think c-sections by choice, rather than necessity, are unwise, I have to support a womans right to birth how she chooses.

So, I don't agree with the choice, but I support the right to have that choice.
Right. This is how I feel.

When it comes to reproductive rights, there are many choices that I would not make, some of which fairly disgust me, but I still believe in a woman's right to make said choice.

[BeachMama]

When it comes to reproductive rights, there are many choices that I would not make, some of which fairly disgust me, but I still believe in a woman's right to make said choice.

ITA.