Spinoff of the bf.com donation thread

[Tweet]

So as not to be accused anymore of purposely trying to funscuck, here's the spin off. I do think it's appropriate to discuss why people do not feel comfortable doing so this year and it'd be nice not to have that thrown back as if we just want to take the joy out of it for everyone else.

So, discussion is more than welcome on this thread.


eta: here is the link to the original thread:
http://www.breastfeeding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35974

[Tweet]

Here is what I posted on the other thread:

Unfortunately, the people that have done hurtful things here to scam others,harrass others, etc *do* ruin for everyone else. And I'm the one not being kind? How about the people who do it? As far as I'm concerned, they're the reason people are gun shy about helping. If I give locally, no one knows my address or my email addy. Can't have that same thing here and after the stuff some have pulled, I really don't feel safe to do so. That's just the bottom line. Not that I want to "punish" Mogey or her kids..although, the blame here is really misplaced, imo.

My conscience feels ok. I'll help locally and I'll help a lot (albeit not a lot financially) I know that I'm not hurtful. I'd love to do something here as well, but won't because there have been people that have done scary, not ok things here. As much as it sucks, they're the ones to blame, not those of us that don't feel safe doing so. Hell, I'm not even worried about being 'scammed'- I worry about being harrassed and god knows what else. The last year has reinforced to me that the internet can be a scary place. I don't think that makes *me* the bad guy, though.
__________________

[CatSoup]

I'm confused. What is this a S/O of? NN's Christmas thread?

[Tweet]

Because some thought it inappropriate to have a discussion about it on that thread.

[bocarioja]

I agree with the whole trust issue being a reason to keep info private.

I would only feel comfortable PMing my address to a few people I feel I have come to know through PMs and other chats. I feel that posting my own approved list of people I feel comfortable with would beg the question of "What about me? Why am I not on the list? What Have I done to not be included on your list? Lists hurt feelings... blah bitch and blah..."

I have not participated in any board-wide exchange here because there is so much that could happen.

[Bohemian]

I agree with the whole trust issue being a reason to keep info private.

I would only feel comfortable PMing my address to a few people I feel I have come to know through PMs and other chats. I feel that posting my own approved list of people I feel comfortable with would beg the question of "What about me? Why am I not on the list? What Have I done to not be included on your list? Lists hurt feelings... blah bitch and blah..."

I have not participated in any board-wide exchange here because there is so much that could happen.

All of this.

[chickabiddy]

I'm not insulted by "give freely or don't give", although I think that's not really what's at play here. When I give, I give freely -- I don't expect anything in return. I don't just toss stuff out and hope it gets where I want it to. I think it's responsible to choose to donate where there is community accountability, and I think it's insulting to have that dismissed as "funsucking".
It is depressing. But yesterday, people were asking "what's the harm in giving another chance?" Well, a possible harm is that people -- like me, maybe like others -- decide that if community standards are lowered, we don't feel comfortable participating in donations or exchanges.

That's what I wrote, and it's how I feel.

I'm choosing to give locally or through trusted organizations this year. I am aware that there are no guarantees in life, but it's important to me to try to shepherd my resources and give responsibly. My conscience is clear as well.

[Nipple_nectar]

Thank you for the spin off~ it is appreciated by me:)

I am already a person that anyone here can easily find because of my business. Maybe, if I had the luxury of privacy or anonimity, this would be an issue worth discussing but I am already resolved that I put myself out there by manner of my web site.

I do think that the negativity in the other thread may have a dampering affect of those who might otherwise be willing to participate. I wasn't trying to convert the skeptics, just ring the bell for those who were willing but needed some comraderie.

[MoonBound]

When I first came here, I was very quickly part of a quilt square exchange. It worked fine and nothing bad happened. My dh, who is very computer savvy and information release wary thought I was crazy and was a bit mad at me.

I re-joined and participated in the ornament exchange. Maybe I wouldn't have after reading about mogey, kb & rkeith. But maybe I would have.

I am not participating in a secret santa thing because 1. I like clear rules, 2. I don't have time to find toys that are nice and that are not favorites, I am too busy making gifts for family and friends and dealing with kids, 3. we are helping a mom locally, 4. I hate the post office - think it's a neat service - just hate going with no parking and three kids in tow.

as to the fun sucking. I don't think it is wrong to express yourself but maybe those who do want to play have a hard time organizing with only people popping in to say they where not. I can totally see wanting to help people in this community and finding it hard and depressing to have that attempt thwarted, but I can also see feeling hurt and vulnerable by these events and wanting to protect yourself and your community.

[Nipple_nectar]

I don't want to downplay that I agree with your concerns. I wouldn't dare use the term "funsucking" in this thread because the purpose of this thread is to discuss our feelings WRT such and such.

How you feel is completely appropriate to share and I am thankful that Tweet respectfully paved the way for this discussion. I think it is sorely needed:)

[HammBugga]

I am no longer participating in any exchanges or gift giving for the reasons mentioned. Plus the last exchange I did I received nothing. Not only that but if anything I would need to be on the receiving end this year. However, there are many worse off than I so I would never ask for charity.

[WalkingTittyBar]

I think if people want to participate in the Secret Santa thing here, that is fine. I personally dont participate because of situations like what happened with KB and other fakes. (And I am not saying NN is fake as I believe she is real. lol) I would rather give to local toy drives or people who I know personally. I want to make sure what I give gets in the right hands, ya know. Just my thoughts.

[Nipple_nectar]

Yes, no doubt there will be a percentage of undeserving scammers, I can live with that in the grand scheme of things, though.

[HammBugga]

Maybe you can NN but I don't think most other people can. If I had been a giver and saw that the person I gave to, to make sure they got a Christmas, was posting pics of ridiculous amounts of gifts that they had received or even purchased for themselves in addition to the ones I gave I would be pretty damn pissed.

[Amberry]

That's what I wrote, and it's how I feel.

I'm choosing to give locally or through trusted organizations this year. I am aware that there are no guarantees in life, but it's important to me to try to shepherd my resources and give responsibly. My conscience is clear as well.

I agree with the nested quotes in Chicka's original post and the above. So, basically, I completely agree with Chicka, as usual.

[QuiltyConscience]

I agree with Chickabiddy. I want a sign that says "I agree with the Zebra".

I have limited resources to donate, and I want to make sure my donations go where they truly are needed. I feel more comfortable donating through our scouts and church, to families I personally know.

[Tweet]

See, I know that scamming might happen IRL as well as here. That's been a chance I'm willing to take. My fears are using private info for god knows what. So, maybe my reasons are a little different than others. We've kind of had it thrown in our faces that some might harass or steal identities or stalk or what have you. That's personally what makes me feel unsafe.

ETA And being there is no way to enforce the TOS here, that's part of what makes it feel unsafe.I might feel a bit differently if I could trust that we as a community won't put up with that kind of crap. And I truly don't mean that in a way to punish the community for not doing so..but that's a consequence I'm afraid that is going to be the result of allowing those types of people to stay on.

[chickabiddy]

Maybe you can NN but I don't think most other people can. If I had been a giver and saw that the person I gave to, to make sure they got a Christmas, was posting pics of ridiculous amounts of gifts that they had received or even purchased for themselves in addition to the ones I gave I would be pretty damn pissed.

I have no idea if this is going to make any sense at all, but I'll try. I can live with being scammed if it happens despite reasonable precautions. Stuff happens. Life goes on. However, I can't, in good conscience, direct my limited resources towards a venture where there doesn't seem to be any effort to prevent scamming.

[Tweet]

Chicka, that is my EXACT thought,seriously.

[QuiltyConscience]

I guess Amber needs A "I heart the Zebra" sign too.

[Nipple_nectar]

I think insisting that participants are established members is the only recourse we have. Wouldn't you consider that an effort?

Do you have any other suggestions, I am eager to hear what you have to say, it is always from a place of fairness and tempered with a sense of sensibility that I sometimes lack with all my fluffiness.

[chickabiddy]

Well, with respect, saying "yeah, maybe some of us will get scammed but that's okay" and "don't worry, just give freely" (paraphrasing, I know) doesn't exactly set the bar very high, kwim?

And truthfully, right now, in the first week of December, I'm not sure what could be done to make things happen in a way where potential donors would feel comfortable.

[Tweet]

I think insisting that participants are established members is the only recourse we have. Wouldn't you consider that an effort?

Do you have any other suggestions, I am eager to hear what you have to say, it is always from a place of fairness and tempered with a sense of sensibility that I sometimes lack with all my fluffiness.


Not especially. I mean, look how long KB had been posting. Granted, she didn't do anything to hurt anyone physically, but I surely wouldn't trust someone like her with my private info ( which she has, btw).

Personally, I won't feel comfortable again unless there is ever a way to ensure that once a person is found to be doing something TOSable is a) completely banned and b) the community as a whole stops supporting those types of people and wanting them to stay a part of the bf .com community

I realize fully that all that won't ever happen so I guess there's no way for me to ever be ok participating, which is too bad.

[Amy_G_]

there is no way to completely ban them with the technology we have. and who would want to submit to a retina scan to post on an internet message board anyway? It's impossible to ban them and keep them banned unless you don't take any new members into your community. It's a fault of every message board community I've ever been a part of. there is no way to make a message board like this completely safe. maybe a private community with limited membership to those you know, but that would be very limited. for some people that's what they choose, a small, private community, but I've been scammed and lied to in those types of communities as well.

[Tweet]

Yes, I know it'd be impossible. It's the only way I'd ever do it again, but I'm not saying it's realistic. And of course others aren't going to feel as strongly as I do about it. And like I said, being scammed and lied to isn't my concern. I worry what a wackadoo would do with the private information.

[QuiltyConscience]

there is no way to completely ban them with the technology we have. and who would want to submit to a retina scan to post on an internet message board anyway? It's impossible to ban them and keep them banned unless you don't take any new members into your community. It's a fault of every message board community I've ever been a part of. there is no way to make a message board like this completely safe. maybe a private community with limited membership to those you know, but that would be very limited. for some people that's what they choose, a small, private community, but I've been scammed and lied to in those types of communities as well.


I agree with you. And it's exactly why, for me, I am not comfortable with offering my limited donations. Too much risk for me. I prefer a lower risk way to help out.

[TuetonicWillow]

I detest being asked for money online. I hate the PMs asking me to chip in and give money to someone I don't even know and I avoid the threads calling for donations and all that.

I like to give to organizations I trust and people I know and care about. I sleep well at night because I know I give more than a fair share to what I consider worthy causes or loved friends.

I don't lose any sleep at night over refusing to give to anonymous strangers that I don't know from Adam. This is not the only place one can be generous and it's not the only place to do something kind for others during the holidays.

[Amy_G_]

For some it seems to have gone past the point of not being comfortable, but also to the point of being actively worried and hostile about the online community as a whole.

that's when you need to step away, reaffirm real life and evaluate what you can get from an online community, and remind yourself of what you can't ever get from that kind of community. Safety and complete trust is something you can't take for granted online.

But the amount of caring, understanding and compassion that is available online in communities like this, far outweighs the bad experiences. Only you know if you can get past that to enjoy things again.

If you are "too burned" at this community, honestly, it may be time to look for something smaller and more intimate with less chance of it happening again. But Some like the odds of a larger board like this better than the odds of getting really really close to someone in a small community and having that feel even worse when they betray you.

Each has to find their own way. Some learn that they just can't ever get that close again in this surreal environment. I, myself, don't get that close any more. I understand that feeling of mistrust and anger. But I try really hard to not give my negativity to others.

Cautioning others is good, but don't scare them away from making an online connection if they want to. know that most of the people here are just who they say they are, but perhaps with not quite so much shine in person as they have online.

[QuiltyConscience]

I can quite enjoy a message board and the chit chat,friendships, recipes, advise and lolcats just fine without wanting to participate in other parts of it.

I am more comfortable with some posters than others, everyone is. I don't think it's hostile to not want to donate to a cause that you aren't sure about. If somebody wants to participate, go, have fun.

I don't see anybody trying to scare off anybody from making any connections. Reasonable warnings to be cautious, yes. It would be silly to pretend that there is no need for caution.

[QuiltyConscience]

I'll go ahead and say that Message boards may not be the best vehicle for a Christmas drive such as this. Just the very nature of the anonymity leaves it wide open to fraud, and there have been a few trainwrecks over the Christmas donations in the past.

I have been happy to donate in the past, and I am very pleased with my involvement. I personally have not been burned in the Christmas Donation. I am also happy to donate my efforts for charity raffles for the 3 day, and would do so again. I fell like there was more control over it than there is with the Christmas drive.

That said, I have no problem with anybody else wanting to do so, I am not trying to stop anyone, just explaining why I, and perhaps others may be hesitant to participate.

[Justicedog]

I agree that message boards aren't the best place for Christmas drive.

I think that there are local places that are really working hard at eliminating duplicate efforts, where one family is helped by 3 organizations and another isn't helped at all. I like that effort and would support that more.

I'm also not able to give "freely" on-line. If the person whom I donate to is saying that they can't afford gifts for Christmas, then I spend my money to help them and then they post about how they're going on a cruise and it's only $400 per night and they just bought a new couch purse, I end up feeling used. But that's me, I recognize my limits and find ways to give where it's more controlled, or at least, I won't see the abuse and won't feel used or conned.

I think it's also fair to let others know of some of the issues that have happened in the past so they can make an informed decision on whether they want to participate or not.

[Sashahomeschoolmama]

I didn't read the other thread. For several years now I have helped a friend (not the same friend each time, but always someone I consider to be a friend all the same). I do it because I truly care about that specific person and it makes my heart happy to imagine that their holiday is a little brighter.

At one time I needed help in order for my kids to have a holiday and I haven't forgotten it. That's why, even though we also help someone locally, I have continued my tradition of helping someone here.

With all of that said, I understand people's reservations about the Secret Santa program. In the light of KB and such I doubly understand it.

[Tweet]

Amg, I get the feeling that you think some of our reasons are silly and just negative and not valid. Maybe I'm totally reading you wrong, but that's how it comes across to me at least.

[Bohemian]

Actually I'm kind of surprised by Amy's position on this. She was one of the loudest voices during the map debacle because it violated people's privacy. For me, participating in an Xmas drive or an exchange requires me to give out more information than I'm comfortable with because as it's been stated it's impossible to know who is out there on the other side of the screen.

I feel like some people are trying to make those uncomfortable for whatever reason feel guilty. That the spirit of giving should override valid concerns if you're approaching this the "right way"

[Tweet]

Yes, I'm getting that feeling also and I'm also surprised by Amy's position. Maybe she doesn't really feel that way, idk. In the other thread, she said NN should start another thread and that there's a lot of negativity here. I don't like being thought of as some negative, wet blanket. I feel like my concerns are valid and that doesn't mean I need to find a smaller online community, either.

[babymakes4]

I get the over all sentiment that people are worried about scammers and such. I just think it stinks that the children who really may need help won't get it this year because of some pretty selfish, childish adults who decided to scam people previously.

there was a year when I needed help with my kids christmas, and the secret santa here was the only christmas they had. It was wonderful, they recieved some wonderful things as did I and dh (which we never expected)

On christmas morning when I saw my children light up with excitement I was overwhelmed with gratefulness for the people that helped that happen. this year I am not in a position to be able to afford to help another family, but I can finally afford a christmas for my own kids.

I personally can't wait until they day that I can give to a family in need. Giving is what christmas is all about after all.

[Sameach]

I couldn't agree more with all of the things that have been said on this thread re. the reservations people have about participating in online donations. (Well, with the exception of TW not liking to give money when asked via PM when a member of the community is obviously suffering great heartache. To me, giving $5 when someone has experienced a horrific tragedy in their lives is the very least I can do. I have done so three times here, and all three times there was no question in my mind that the tragedy and the person affected were both very, very real.)

Since I really can't add anything more useful, I will simply quote MoonBound and ponder when in the hell the USPS will install drive through lanes.

I hate the post office - think it's a neat service - just hate going with no parking and three kids in tow.



AMEN.

[QuiltyConscience]

I get the over all sentiment that people are worried about scammers and such. I just think it stinks that the children who really may need help won't get it this year because of some pretty selfish, childish adults who decided to scam people previously.
.

BFCOM is not the only resource for help, nor is it a guaranteed yearly offering. I don't think it is a good idea for people to count on it as a fallback in case of hard times. It's great if it can work out, but as I said there are several other organizations, community efforts, etc that do these things, so I really don't feel as if me not contributing here is screwing someone over.

[QuiltyConscience]

I couldn't agree more with all of the things that have been said on this thread re. the reservations people have about participating in online donations. (Well, with the exception of TW not liking to give money when asked via PM when a member of the community is obviously suffering great heartache. To me, giving $5 when someone has experienced a horrific tragedy in their lives is the very least I can do. I have done so three times here, and all three times there was no question in my mind that the tragedy and the person affected were both very, very real.)

Since I really can't add anything more useful, I will simply quote MoonBound and ponder when in the hell the USPS will install drive through lanes.



AMEN.


I think it's nice if someone wants to help out financially if they want to, but really unfair to criticize TW for being annoyed by numerous requests.

[Nipple_nectar]

I think there are some here that are definitely over~reacting. I merely said if you were making a bag of toys to give away and you had a few bucks, you could ship it to someone within this community who needed it. Anonymously. The only information being divulged here would be the giftee's home address and I can clearly say that I don't think anyone in this thread is saying, hey, I would like to have a present but I don't want anyone to know where I live.

I never said that the donors had to reveal themselves or their location. Some are making a mountain out of a molehill, big surprise.

I think that you all have serious, valid concerns for your safety or merely some fucknuttery with an internet nutball and I don't blame any one of you for being cautious. But I'll state this as clearly as I can: ALL DONORS will be kept confidential, I don't need any of your personal information to say, hey Sally's family needs that, send it to blah, blah, blah.

Either you are interested in participating for the greater good or you will fullfill your destiny elsewhere.

I was just facilitating a segway to move goods from one spot to another as a gesture of goodwill.

[Tweet]

I've gotten annoyed myself at times. One week (this was years ago) I had 3 PMS from 3 different people, asking for donations for people I didn't even know. It was a bad time for my family as well, we had just gone through hell finding out DS had some serious issues.

I really just prefer to give all on my own for something like that and I don't like feeling pressured to give to people I don't know from Adam.

[Tweet]

NN, I don't agree with you. But, I knew from your previous posts in this thread that you at least understood. I was asking if Amy G did because it doesn't seem like it to me, given her posts.

[Nipple_nectar]

NN, I don't agree with you. But, I knew from your previous posts in this thread that you at least understood. I was asking if Amy G did because it doesn't seem like it to me, given her posts.

You don't agree with me on which point?

[Bohemian]

NN, I don't appreciate the passive aggressiveness of this statement:
Some are making a mountain out of a molehill, big surprise.with your "big surprise"

Just because this isn't going over the way you'd like with everyone jumping in full throttle it doesn't mean people are overreacting and making a mountain out of a mole hill. Up until that post, I don't see where in any of your threads that it was stated how this would work or that donors could remain anonymous. The only thing I've seen is asking for goods and people to participate. There hasn't been anything but generalities and very few details on how this was going to be done. Y

Personally this whole thing is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I don't see how anyone overreacted in this thread and it really feels like people that continue to have concerns are having their feelings invalidated. I don't know about anyone else but it sure isn't easing any concerns or giving me any desire whatsoever to participate in the future when I'm being be told it's a "big surprise" that I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Tweet]

You don't agree with me on which point?


Sorry. That some are making a mountain out of a molehill. I got distracted while typing.

[QuiltyConscience]

FWIW, I think the Post Office does require a return address on packages.

[Bohemian]

FWIW, I think the Post Office does require a return address on packages.


I was wondering about that but I wasn't sure. Not sure how you could remain anonymous if that is the case.

I just googled and it is required:

1.5.3 Required Use of Return Addresses

[12-4-08] The sender's domestic return address must appear legibly on:

a. Mail of any class bearing a printed ancillary service request or an ancillary service request embedded within an Intelligent Mail barcode.

b. Official mail.

c. Mail paid with precanceled stamps (except Standard Mail pieces weighing 13 ounces or less and bearing a mailer's postmark in accordance with 604.3.4).

d. Matter bearing a company permit imprint.

e. Priority Mail.

f. Periodicals in envelopes or wrappers.

g. Package Services (except unendorsed Bound Printed Matter).

h. Registered Mail.

i. Insured mail.

j. Collect on delivery (COD) mail.

k. Certified Mail if a return receipt is requested.

l. Express Mail if a return receipt is requested. The return address on the Express Mail label meets this standard.

http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/602.htm

So no, it would be impossible to send packages anonymously.

[bocarioja]

Isn't it still possible for someone to use a fake or false return address?

[Tweet]

Isn't it still possible for someone to use a fake or false return address?


Maybe, but I wouldn't be comfortable lying in order to do it. That's just me, though.

NN, out of curiosity , which of us are making mountains out of molehills? Or rather, what reasons being given are..and why did you say "big surprise"? This makes me feel like you *don't* truly understand. :confused:

[Nipple_nectar]

Well, I checked with my local post office and they said it would be okay for you to put from the North Pole:)

So, yes, it is possible to remain anonymous. Those of you who feel they need a legit address can use mine as long as they are comfortable with the package being shipped here in the event of a delivery failure.

The mountain out of a molehill is in reference to the safety concerns regarding this specific gifting event. No one bothered to ask me any details, I would have gladly pointed it out sooner that personal information was not required to participate.

The families that have PMed me to participate are wishing to be acknowledged, so it goes whatever way you wish.

The "big surprise" is not passive aggressive. Knowing the history of this board, I knew that there would be people that would thwart the efforts made by others. It was sarcasm but definitely not passive aggressive.

[crissyy]

I'm fairly new to posting, but not new to the board. I'll participate, but I always feel more comfortable using my rented PO Box that I use for my ebaying. Not that that is an option for everyone or I'm saying you should go pay for a PO Box for bf.com. I thin that what NN is doing is admirable, but I also understand the concerns. I don't see where anyone is being forced to do anything.

[HammBugga]

"thwart the efforts"... Are you even reading our concerns or reasons or are you just ignoring them because they don't fit with your misconceptions about why people aren't participating?

[Sameach]

I think it's nice if someone wants to help out financially if they want to, but really unfair to criticize TW for being annoyed by numerous requests.

Well, actually, I wasn't criticizing her. I said that I don't agree with her opinion. I went on to offer my own opinion of how I feel when I'm asked for donations.

[Nipple_nectar]

"thwart the efforts"... Are you even reading our concerns or reasons or are you just ignoring them because they don't fit with your misconceptions about why people aren't participating?

You are way off base.

[HammBugga]

Then why don't you enlighten me. You keep saying I am wrong about what you mean yet I am quoting your ACTUAL words, not simply paraphrasing. Who is thwarting your efforts, exactly?

[Tweet]

Why is she way off base? I'm feeling confused, myself. First you say you do understand , then you say some are making mountains out of molehills ( we still don't know which of us are doing so) and now you say you are not surprised because you knew someone would try to
"thwart the efforts". So, that seems that you don't in fact understand our reasoning and we're still seen as the bad guys that don't want to give and we're trying to thwart the efforts of the do gooders.

I have to say, all of this is making me feel like crap and definitely not encouraging me to participate ever again, period.I was starting to think maybe there could be a way, but frankly, this is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I feel as if I'm being asked to give but if I have any reservations, I'm a big ole mean wet blanket that doesn't want our needy board members to have a good Christmas. It's really a sucky feeling.

[Nipple_nectar]

I don't want to downplay that I agree with your concerns. I wouldn't dare use the term "funsucking" in this thread because the purpose of this thread is to discuss our feelings WRT such and such.

How you feel is completely appropriate to share and I am thankful that Tweet respectfully paved the way for this discussion. I think it is sorely needed:)


I think there are some here that are definitely over~reacting. I merely said if you were making a bag of toys to give away and you had a few bucks, you could ship it to someone within this community who needed it. Anonymously. The only information being divulged here would be the giftee's home address and I can clearly say that I don't think anyone in this thread is saying, hey, I would like to have a present but I don't want anyone to know where I live.

I never said that the donors had to reveal themselves or their location. Some are making a mountain out of a molehill, big surprise.

I think that you all have serious, valid concerns for your safety or merely some fucknuttery with an internet nutball and I don't blame any one of you for being cautious. But I'll state this as clearly as I can: ALL DONORS will be kept confidential, I don't need any of your personal information to say, hey Sally's family needs that, send it to blah, blah, blah.

Either you are interested in participating for the greater good or you will fullfill your destiny elsewhere.

I was just facilitating a segway to move goods from one spot to another as a gesture of goodwill.

For enlightenment purposes: I've already stated twice that your concerns are valid.

Also, I never said anyone was thwarting my efforts, I could quote that post too, if you like.

[QuiltyConscience]

Again, I am not trying to Thwart anybody's efforts. I am explaining my own point of view. I don't think that the Christmas giving is a bad thing to do, just not fitting for me personally. I am not trying to stop anybody from doing anything they want to do.

[chickabiddy]

Well, I checked with my local post office and they said it would be okay for you to put from the North Pole:)

So, yes, it is possible to remain anonymous. Those of you who feel they need a legit address can use mine as long as they are comfortable with the package being shipped here in the event of a delivery failure.

The mountain out of a molehill is in reference to the safety concerns regarding this specific gifting event. No one bothered to ask me any details, I would have gladly pointed it out sooner that personal information was not required to participate.

The families that have PMed me to participate are wishing to be acknowledged, so it goes whatever way you wish.

The "big surprise" is not passive aggressive. Knowing the history of this board, I knew that there would be people that would thwart the efforts made by others. It was sarcasm but definitely not passive aggressive.

If you did not mean that Hamm/Tweet/I/others are thwarting your efforts, then who is the thwarter and who is the thwartee to whom you refer?

[HammBugga]

Well, I checked with my local post office and they said it would be okay for you to put from the North Pole:)

So, yes, it is possible to remain anonymous. Those of you who feel they need a legit address can use mine as long as they are comfortable with the package being shipped here in the event of a delivery failure.

The mountain out of a molehill is in reference to the safety concerns regarding this specific gifting event. No one bothered to ask me any details, I would have gladly pointed it out sooner that personal information was not required to participate.

The families that have PMed me to participate are wishing to be acknowledged, so it goes whatever way you wish.

The "big surprise" is not passive aggressive. Knowing the history of this board, I knew that there would be people that would thwart the efforts made by others. It was sarcasm but definitely not passive aggressive.

I quoted it NN and even bolded it for you. Who is thwarting the efforts and how are the thwarting?

[Tweet]

Yes, you said: The "big surprise" is not passive aggressive. Knowing the history of this board, I knew that there would be people that would thwart the efforts made by others. It was sarcasm but definitely not passive aggressive.
====================================

So, you're saying someone or someones are trying to thwart efforts made and you admit to being sarcastic. We've all given basically the same reasons, so we don't know whose reasons you are understanding and who you feel is "thwarting the efforts made by others".

[Nipple_nectar]

QC~ I have nothing but respect for you and others who are and continue to have respectful dialogue with me about this, I am certainly not referring to you:)

Tweet, I myself, lost a great deal of trust and have really changed my approach with respects to alot around here, I am definitely more cautious and have pause before alot of my offerings.

When Hamm says I have misconceptions of why people aren't participating she is way off base. Since when do I ignore anyone? That is way off base too. Her insinuations are hurtful and I can't help feeling bullied by her.

[HammBugga]

Oh please. I am not bullying you. The misconception comment was based on your statement that people are deliberately "thwarting" your efforts.

[Nipple_nectar]

I have received a few PMs from members here, stating that they did need help but were afraid to ask, given the heat of this thread.

So, given the definition of thwart: tr.v., thwart·ed, thwart·ing, thwarts.
To prevent the occurrence, realization, or attainment of: They thwarted her plans.
To oppose and defeat the efforts, plans, or ambitions of.

Naming names is not my style, so you can chastise me for that, if you like. But yes, these words are stinging for some of our members.

[HammBugga]

Furthermore, YOUR insinuations are the hurtful ones. Bullying indeed.

[CatEyes]

QC~ I have nothing but respect for you and others who are and continue to have respectful dialogue with me about this, I am certainly not referring to you:)

Tweet, I myself, lost a great deal of trust and have really changed my approach with respects to alot around here, I am definitely more cautious and have pause before alot of my offerings.

When Hamm says I have misconceptions of why people aren't participating she is way off base. Since when do I ignore anyone? That is way off base too. Her insinuations are hurtful and I can't help feeling bullied by her.


NN :hug: ;)

[Bohemian]

This:
(by NN) When Hamm says I have misconceptions of why people aren't participating she is way off base. Since when do I ignore anyone? That is way off base too. Her insinuations are hurtful and I can't help feeling bullied by her.

does not answer this:
I quoted it NN and even bolded it for you. Who is thwarting the efforts and how are the thwarting?

And I don't see how she is bullying you. You are making comments that are mean and not explaining what and who you are referring to.

This:
(by NN) Tweet, I myself, lost a great deal of trust and have really changed my approach with respects to alot around here, I am definitely more cautious and have pause before alot of my offerings.

does not answer this:
(by Tweet) So, you're saying someone or someones are trying to thwart efforts made and you admit to being sarcastic. We've all given basically the same reasons, so we don't know whose reasons you are understanding and who you feel is "thwarting the efforts made by others".

I have to say, all of this is making me feel like crap and definitely not encouraging me to participate ever again, period.I was starting to think maybe there could be a way, but frankly, this is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I feel as if I'm being asked to give but if I have any reservations, I'm a big ole mean wet blanket that doesn't want our needy board members to have a good Christmas. It's really a sucky feeling.

Yep.

[Bohemian]

I have received a few PMs from members here, stating that they did need help but were afraid to ask, given the heat of this thread.




The heat of this thread? It didn't get heated until you started making your "sarcastic"comments and accusing people of "thwarting" your plans. Where is the "heat" from those that are thwarting your plans?

eta: and why in the world would someone be afraid to ask for help? The people who need help remain anon to the general board and the people that don't choose to participate in donations will never know who they are. It makes no sense.

[Crabbie]

Afuckingmazing! simply afuckingmazing!

[Tweet]

Well, they needn't feel the "heat". People that aren't worried will give. This has nothing to do with members in need. This has to do with harassment from past members that have worried a few of us and freaked us out enough to be very leary of participating again. There isn't anything "stinging" about that. Hell, lots of the people that are wary said they could use the help themselves! Again, apparently we are just seen as the big meanies that are out to put a damper on everything.

I tried to be respectful by spinning off and still let people have the discussion. It says right in the OP it's a discussion for those wary of participating so why would people read it if they didn't want their fun ruined and felt like such a discussion would indeed ruin the fun? I don't understand. This is incredibly frustrating because it feels like we're assholes for discussing it.

NN, I know you don't want to name names and I don't blame you..that's why Iasked upthread what reasons being given are ones that are considered to be thwarting? Maybe then it can be clarified.

[Tweet]

The heat of this thread? It didn't get heated until you started making your "sarcastic"comments and accusing people of "thwarting" your plans. Where is the "heat" from those that are thwarting your plans?

eta: and why in the world would someone be afraid to ask for help? The people who need help remain anon to the general board and the people that don't choose to participate in donations will never know who they are. It makes no sense.


No kidding. This has not at all been about chastising those who need help. This is getting ridiculous. I think I'm glad I'm not participating if this is how I'm seen and I'm making people afraid because of MY fear. :mad:Fuck an A.

[Nipple_nectar]

I can say that in this thread it was made mention that they wouldn't be asking for charity for there were others worse off, I'm going by memory, so please don't quote me.

I did receive at least three responses that did contain apologies for feeling like a charity case and I think that's really shitty that people reading this, feel bad for asking for help, that's why I started the other damn thread to begin with.

I was trying to help, to do a good thing and my words were minced to inflame others or maybe I am just really shitty at expressing myself, I am willing to accept the latter.

So, now I could quote tweet and say that is exactly how I am feeling, really sucky. I guess we can thank the likes of Mogey and KB, for creating such an undercurrent of mistrust that even former allies begin to question the motives of others.

[Bohemian]

I don't understand why someone feeling bad for needing help has anything to do with the reasons people won't participate. It seems like two different things. In any case my hangs up with this are MY hangups. If people want to participate, that's wonderful and the people that need to ask for help shouldn't feel ashamed. We have all been there one time or another. My personal feelings and trust issues have nothing to do with those that need genuine help.

[HammBugga]

I can say that in this thread it was made mention that they wouldn't be asking for charity for there were others worse off, I'm going by memory, so please don't quote me.

I did receive at least three responses that did contain apologies for feeling like a charity case and I think that's really shitty that people reading this, feel bad for asking for help, that's why I started the other damn thread to begin with.

.
So now basically you are saying it is MY fault that people feel bad about asking for help because I said this:


I am no longer participating in any exchanges or gift giving for the reasons mentioned. Plus the last exchange I did I received nothing. Not only that but if anything I would need to be on the receiving end this year. However, there are many worse off than I so I would never ask for charity.

Fucking please. And I'm being accused of bullying you. This is unfuckingbelievable.

ETA: I NEVER said that people should feel bad about asking for help if there are others worse off. I said how *I* feel and I am not going back on that because that IS how I feel. I grew up DIRT poor and didn't have shit. My life is blessed now, even with my husband having been off work for 8 months of this year. And even though we have absolutely no money and no income. I should not be made to feel bad for caring more about people who are TRULY in need. I ALWAYS put other's needs before my own. Anyone who truly knows me knows this.

[Amy_G_]

for those who are here every day, that have it tough at christmas, it seems logical to ask your friends online for a little help. it's been pretty darned logical in the past years that the online friends would be willing to help at least a little bit.
But it's still really hard to ask for help.

And it's even harder to ask for help, if you are reading a large thread where some very vocal members are saying the reason they won't participate and donate is because they don't want to be scammed, and they don't trust people.

bf.com has often been a fill in measure for those who make too much to qualify for assistance, but who don't have any extra for christmas gifts Those who say there are always other options have obviously never been in that situation.

[Amy_G_]

As for my appearing wishy washy or not understanding....
I'm a complex being.

I don't want an online message board to give away my personal details without my permission.
but I don't have as big an issue with giving to help someone out that I've been "talking" with online on that message board since my 8 year old was 6 months old.
I've given at another board and gotten scammed. It sucked.
I've given at another board and received way more thanks than I ever thought I would receive. The karma was very healing to my spirit and faith in mankind as a whole.
I've exchanged christmas cards and valentines cards across the nation with people I know only online.
And there has always been the chance there was a mogey out there waiting and collecting info on me to use with nefarious intent.

I've been a troll. I've fought internet addiction. I've hurt people's feelings, I've caused grief and I've had people wish harm to myself and my children because of how I acted online. I've been mogey. I've seen mogey-ish people online turn into real people, loving, kind, caring people. for some the internet starts out as a big huge game, and they will play it from various directions--as the good guy, or the bad guy, or the crazy bitch in the corner to see what the outcome is. Half the people reading this message board as guests right now are probably breastfeeding fetish-ists or pedophiles hoping we'll post a picture they can snag.

There is a line to walk between over-reacting and under-reacting. Right now the board has swung towards a bit paranoid. People become more protective of their identifies when things blow up online, however it's been a really long time(in the internet world) since KB or mogey acted up.

i will add that EVERY TIME there has been a gift exchange there have been those who say they won't participate because of similar reasons to yours. Your reasons are not new. However, the delivery, timing, or wording of your reasons have struck a new and different chord this year. Perhaps it's the combination of your voicing your concern, and the horrible outlook of the economy that is making for a louder crash?

[nikkifaith]

This place really is Fuckyworld now. It was inevitable.

[Tweet]

Well, I am truly sorry if people behind the scenes are feeling badly because they don't feel like they can ask for help..or feel bad for asking for help.However, I'm not going to take the blame for thatjust because I started a discussion thread. I think it should be discussed if people are feeling wary. I'm talking about my concerns and feelings and none of those have had anything to do with scamming per se. I've not once said that others should feel the way I do or should reconsider donating. If they don't have any worries, that is truly wonderful and I'm GLAD they are donating.

And yes, I am sure there are plenty of trollish people that go on to be really cool online community members. However , the last year has taught me just how extreme it can get and how much you can get hurt. While I've known there was always a chance, I've now seen first hand what people with private information can do. Like Boho said, that's *my* issue and no one else's. I think it's awesome that many don't have that issue and DO feel fine and comfortable enough to do the donation. I never meant to imply otherwise.

[Tweet]

I..can't stop staring at that nose. It's mesmerising

[Monkeytoes]

Stop looking at my nose beotch! ;)

[Justicedog]

Well, I am truly sorry if people behind the scenes are feeling badly because they don't feel like they can ask for help..or feel bad for asking for help.However, I'm not going to take the blame for thatjust because I started a discussion thread. I think it should be discussed if people are feeling wary. I'm talking about my concerns and feelings and none of those have had anything to do with scamming per se. I've not once said that others should feel the way I do or should reconsider donating. If they don't have any worries, that is truly wonderful and I'm GLAD they are donating.

And yes, I am sure there are plenty of trollish people that go on to be really cool online community members. However , the last year has taught me just how extreme it can get and how much you can get hurt. While I've known there was always a chance, I've now seen first hand what people with private information can do. Like Boho said, that's *my* issue and no one else's. I think it's awesome that many don't have that issue and DO feel fine and comfortable enough to do the donation. I never meant to imply otherwise.

I agree. I also think that people should go into things with their eyes wide open.

[Nipple_nectar]

I'm going to go ahead and apologize to you Tweet, my intentions were not to make you feel bad, I am sorry. I have already stated that your intentions were clear to me and although we have never met, you strike me as an honorable woman. I respect you and this thread needed to be here. I am actually glad that for most, we gave their fear a voice and they have been heard. I hear you.

I'm sorry this subject seems to be a trigger for bad feelings all around and I wished I would have handled it better. It was never my intention to shame anyone or imply you were a big ole meanie and I realize I am way too emeshed with the people and my feelings within this community, so that is my issue.

Hamm, you were not the catalyst here, just as you honorably own your words and feelings, others must reflect and do the same. I think it's just for some, we have not wept hard enough or searched our souls deep enough to find resolve in this tsunami of instability and hard times.

The overwhelming sense of lost hope rings louder as each of us struggles to hang on to what little hope we have. Whether it be finances, mental health, personal loss or physical pain~ we all can relate to feeling fearful and the powerlessness that often accompanies it.

So please, not just Hamm or Crabbie, or Boho or Amy, or Chicka or QC or anyone reading, accept my apology, knowing that my intentions were fair.

AmyG~ that was a fantastic post {{{hugs}}}

[chickabiddy]

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at, NN.

I haven't lost hope. I'm not feeling any tsunami. I don't need to weep and search my soul.

I choose not to give within a community that welcomes "trolls", and I choose not to give to an endeavor that doesn't screen recipients.

This is a conscious choice. I refuse to feel guilty about it.

[Nipple_nectar]

Obviously, if the shoe fits, wear it. That post was not directed at you, other than to repeat that I am not trying to insist that you should feel guilty.

I think you have made a sound decision.

[Amy_G_]

Well, I am truly sorry if people behind the scenes are feeling badly because they don't feel like they can ask for help..or feel bad for asking for help.However, I'm not going to take the blame for thatjust because I started a discussion thread. I think it should be discussed if people are feeling wary. I'm talking about my concerns and feelings and none of those have had anything to do with scamming per se. I've not once said that others should feel the way I do or should reconsider donating. If they don't have any worries, that is truly wonderful and I'm GLAD they are donating.

And yes, I am sure there are plenty of trollish people that go on to be really cool online community members. However , the last year has taught me just how extreme it can get and how much you can get hurt. While I've known there was always a chance, I've now seen first hand what people with private information can do. Like Boho said, that's *my* issue and no one else's. I think it's awesome that many don't have that issue and DO feel fine and comfortable enough to do the donation. I never meant to imply otherwise.

The bolded part stands out.
Cause we don't have anyone who is donating, or that's the message I'm hearing from NN. There are no donators, only people asking for help and feeling bad for doing so. that's the part that is so heartwrenching in this discussion.

I can't give this year, I don't think my kids will get what they asked of Santa for the first time this year. Many have said the same thing, or that Christmas will be scaled back, small, homemade and there is no extra $ to buy a gift for someone else's needy kid.

so how can this community that seems to all be struggling, help each other out without risking anyone's privacy, with some semblance of protection from scamming and not making NN pay for everything herself??

that's why the discussion of posting what you have to give away and see if anyone wants it for their kids, and taking up small $1 or so collections to try to offset shipping for those in greatest need.

Nobody is donating, and it turned into a discussion of why you weren't donating, instead of figuring out how to help the families in need some other way.

[KerryS]

I think insisting that participants are established members is the only recourse we have. Wouldn't you consider that an effort?


Established members, like CatEyes?

[KerryS]

I get the over all sentiment that people are worried about scammers and such. I just think it stinks that the children who really may need help won't get it this year because of some pretty selfish, childish adults who decided to scam people previously.

There are plenty of real life charitable organizations so that if anyone here needs help, they should be able to get it.

[KerryS]

"thwart" has lost all meaning to me.

[nikkifaith]

Oh, the melodrama. I agree with Chicka. Tsunamis, fear and hollowness, oh my!

[Amy_G_]

There are plenty of real life charitable organizations so that if anyone here needs help, they should be able to get it.

We have posts all the time about people who are barely scraping by but don't qualify for services. they may be able to get help from churches or angel tree programs, but in many areas, those are income based as well. Who cares if your furnace broke, or your van was wiped out by a crazed deer and the insurance company won't cover the whole cost and your kid's christmas money goes there.

Bf.com has filled that gap in previous years. This year it doesn't look like it will. People are giving less to charitable organizations this year, toys for tots predicts a shorfall of needed toys, and the food bank shelves are getting very bare. Many orgs will be stretched to help as many places as they did last year, and won't be able to help the MORE people that they expect.

[KerryS]

Most churches and private angel tree programs I know of do not ask for proof of income. Declaration of need is usually all that's needed.

Hell, my daughter qualified because her teacher thought she looked "disheveled."

[MoonBound]

Um, I'm fairly new and not particularly good with computers, but it seems to me that most of the problem is that cateyes/mogey and others have harmed members of this community and because there is no technological way to completely keep them for post some people have decided to hope they will grow up or play nice, others feel better thinking that a marked evil is better that doubting every new poster, a third group has only experienced this people while 'playing nice' and thinks perhaps the problem is in the past or being unfairly harped upon, and some members feel so hurt that they must point out what she has done every chance they get and are also hurt that others - people who they trusted and care about are giving her another chance. Fair summary?

If there is no technological solution, how about a societal one. Shunning. Not putting her on ignore but actively excluding her, not discussing her in the present tense at all. I realize that shunning does work better if everyone is on the same page and in person, but if enough people feel so strongly perhaps it will work, certainly it is a way to express intolerance towards trolling and perhaps serve to heal those who have been hurt. Right know she is getting a lot of attention in a lot of threads and continuing to hurt people without really having to do anything.

Her post to Earthmama just now is certainly questionable behavior for a responsible poster.

Next time we want to run a donation program figuring out how it will work before hand and addressing the concerns brought up here might help it to work.

[KerryS]

It's a great idea, but IME, shunning doesn't work well at this site because there are a large percentage of really immature posters here.

Next time we want to run a donation program figuring out how it will work before hand and addressing the concerns brought up here might help it to work.

I agree. I think early December was WAY too late to try to start something of this magnitude. IMO, endeavors like this should be started immediately after Halloween.

[Coconuts71]

Most churches and private angel tree programs I know of do not ask for proof of income. Declaration of need is usually all that's needed.

Hell, my daughter qualified because her teacher thought she looked "disheveled."


I can tell you for sure that Catholic Charities does not ask for proof. they will help anyone who asks. Just contact your Catholic Church. You do NOT have to be Catholic. You don't even have to be religious. They will help anyone with no question.

[Babyhellfire]

I


I agree. I think early December was WAY too late to try to start something of this magnitude. IMO, endeavors like this should be started immediately after Halloween.
ITA with this.
Beyond that I am not sure where I really stand on the issue. i have never taken part in the exchanges on this board. It did seem like it helped out a lot of people in the past ,it is really sad that times are so hard right now I am sure many more could benefit from it this year- but I completely understand being weary of it.

[Amy_G_]

There was a "those who can donate sign up here" post in early November I think, I'm too lazy to search.
nobody appears to have volunteered to donate.

there are past guidelines in the planning forum , and that was at 150 posts, NN upped it to 500.

[Bohemian]

NN, I really appreciate the heartfelt post and the apology. :) I know I was getting defensive last night so I'm sorry for that.

[Nipple_nectar]

Oh, the melodrama. I agree with Chicka. Tsunamis, fear and hollowness, oh my!

It's cool if you want to mock me, I can live with that. But that post really wasn't for you. There are many to whom I wanted to respond to, that haven't even posted in this thread.

Here is the original thread from the beginning of November: http://www.breastfeeding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34913

This weeks thread was my last ditch effort to salvage the BFDC tradition.

[Nipple_nectar]

Established members, like CatEyes?

I don't think you need to worry about her, I think she just managed to get herself banned. She doesn't qualify to participate.

[Amy_G_]

It's cool if you want to mock me, I can live with that. But that post really wasn't for you. There are many to whom I wanted to respond to, that haven't even posted in this thread.

Here is the original thread from the beginning of November: http://www.breastfeeding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34913

This weeks thread was my last ditch effort to salvage the BFDC tradition.

I remember that thread, and you trying to bump it for a while to get replies.
you got no volunteers, correct?
How many have pm'ed you asking for help, or nobody yet?

[Nipple_nectar]

I'm sorry Amy, I really don't have the energy to talk in this thread any more. I need to concentrate my efforts elsewhere. Anyone that wants to address me, can reach me by PM.

I think I have contributed all I can to this thread, anyhow.

[cream_city]

I don't think you need to worry about her, I think she just managed to get herself banned. She doesn't qualify to participate.

What happened? What thread?

[MoonBound]

Can't find the thread any more but she posted a map to Earthmama's neighborhood, under the guise of there worrying about her (Em's) car in a rash of car vandalism there.

[Bohemian]

What happened? What thread?


It's been deleted by Sassy already. Basically Cateyes posted a thread to Earthmama that revealed the very small town she is living in, map and everything. It was supposed a warning because of the crime that happened in her town.

[QuiltyConscience]

UM. How did Mogey Know where EM lives?

[Justicedog]

UM. How did Mogey Know where EM lives?

I wonder that too.

[HammBugga]

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at, NN.

I haven't lost hope. I'm not feeling any tsunami. I don't need to weep and search my soul.

I choose not to give within a community that welcomes "trolls", and I choose not to give to an endeavor that doesn't screen recipients.

This is a conscious choice. I refuse to feel guilty about it.
I was going to reply to the "apology" but I will just agree with this.

Obviously, if the shoe fits, wear it. That post was not directed at you, other than to repeat that I am not trying to insist that you should feel guilty.

I think you have made a sound decision. Who does the shoe fit on? How do YOU know what people are thinking/feeling in their hearts?

As for you apology, I was hoping you would apologize for using me as your scapegoat in your endeavour to gain sympathy by calling me a bully for no apparent reason but I suppose that is too much to ask. Obviously based on your "apology" your opinion on why people are helping out hasn't changed either. It MUST be because they aren't searching their souls. If you can't see how that so called apology reeks of indignation, well there really is no hope.

[Bohemian]

Maybe her Myspace? Mogey used a troll personality to ask for myspace friends and a bunch of people accidentally added her not knowing it was her and thought it just another newbie trying to make friends. Mogey has also pretended to sell things and solicited for addresses via pm.

[HammBugga]

Wrong thread boho.

[Bohemian]

UM. How did Mogey Know where EM lives?


I was responding to this post in this thread.

[Bohemian]

I was going to reply to the "apology" but I will just agree with this.

Who does the shoe fit on? How do YOU know what people are thinking/feeling in their hearts?

As for you apology, I was hoping you would apologize for using me as your scapegoat in your endeavour to gain sympathy by calling me a bully for no apparent reason but I suppose that is too much to ask. Obviously based on your "apology" your opinion on why people are helping out hasn't changed either. It MUST be because they aren't searching their souls. If you can't see how that so called apology reeks of indignation, well there really is no hope.


I responded to her apology because I felt it was sincere but she didn't acknowlege it so between that and some of of what you've mentioned here, I still don't think she really understands where some of us are coming from. I think she is trying but it feels like she's saying she understands but still *feels* in her heart that we are big ol' meanies trying to ruin it for others and if we just search our hearts we'd be on the same page as her and feel the same way.

[HammBugga]

Yes, exactly.

[trueblue]

I know this thread has moved on. I skimmed a lot of it.....

I participated about 4-5 years ago in the Secret Santa here. I seem to recall that I was assigned my own personal family to give to. Whoever was in charge gave me the family's address, list of stuff, and off I went to shop on-line for delivery to her address.

At the time, I didn't even question security and I had fun shopping for the gifts....but even when you shop and deliver everything via on-line, the recipient will have access to your personal info. And the recipient had a lot of trust in bf.com to let them provide me with her address! And I'm never what you could be an "established" poster, because I post infrequently and allow my membership to lapse periodically (due to forgetting my password!!!).

Yup. Nothing I'd do now any more now that I'm more internet savvy/less naive about safety/security.

I feel bad for those who need on-line, but I would feel worse if something happened to me and mine because I had done something on-line to put them at risk.

[Nipple_nectar]

NN, I really appreciate the heartfelt post and the apology. :) I know I was getting defensive last night so I'm sorry for that.

Your apology is acknowledged and gladly accepted, I'm sorry I didn't respond. I'm really trying to stay out of this thread:(


I responded to her apology because I felt it was sincere but she didn't acknowlege it so between that and some of of what you've mentioned here, I still don't think she really understands where some of us are coming from. I think she is trying but it feels like she's saying she understands but still *feels* in her heart that we are big ol' meanies trying to ruin it for others and if we just search our hearts we'd be on the same page as her and feel the same way.

This is not what I am saying at all. I can see that my apology post wasn't specific enough or clear enough. I'm going to try and clear it up one last time then I'm done.

What Hamm is mentioning IS A MISCONCEPTION. It is not what I meant, when I typed those words, I should have just came right out and said it was directed towards myself~ *I* needed to dig deeper to understand and *I* haven't cried hard enough, I was referencing myself, it wasn't even about the donating any more.

It was about the loss of my baby and it always weighs heavy on my heart this time of year and when Hamm said I was just trying to gain sympathy, it just made it worse and then Nikki said I was being hollow and whatthefuckever, I was really trying my damndest to explain myself and I guess I just ended up painting this big, ugly picture of myself.

The whole reason I am still a member here, still participating in the Secret santa and still posting daily on the support forum is not because I think any of you are big ole meanies and I am tired of trying to prove myself.

I completely understand where you are coming from and I don't think you need to explain yourself any further.

So, when Hamm asked who the shoe fits for, there were a few posters that took the statement about asking for charity the wrong way and it was my public plea to them to reflect for themselves, that Hamm was not trying to chastise anyone. It wasn't intended for anyone posting in that thread, but to a certain few who were reading, who are still reading. It also was for me, a self~reflective post, if you will.

There should be no shame in asking for help. It is my honor to post along side all the women in this community and I take pleasure in your company year round.

Again, I'm sorry I didn't articulate myself better earlier.

[nikkifaith]

I never said you were being hollow or whatthefuckever. PerfectKerry.

[Nipple_nectar]

Oh, the melodrama. I agree with Chicka. Tsunamis, fear and hollowness, oh my!

I'm sorry, then~ did I misunderstand you? When you say hollowness, what do you mean?

[KerryS]

I never said you were being hollow or whatthefuckever. PerfectKerry.

{snort}

[nikkifaith]

That's love.

[HammBugga]

Your apology is acknowledged and gladly accepted, I'm sorry I didn't respond. I'm really trying to stay out of this thread:(




This is not what I am saying at all. I can see that my apology post wasn't specific enough or clear enough. I'm going to try and clear it up one last time then I'm done.

What Hamm is mentioning IS A MISCONCEPTION. It is not what I meant, when I typed those words, I should have just came right out and said it was directed towards myself~ *I* needed to dig deeper to understand and *I* haven't cried hard enough, I was referencing myself, it wasn't even about the donating any more. Thank you for clarifying.

It was about the loss of my baby and it always weighs heavy on my heart this time of year and when Hamm said I was just trying to gain sympathy, it just made it worse and then Nikki said I was being hollow and whatthefuckever, I was really trying my damndest to explain myself and I guess I just ended up painting this big, ugly picture of myself. I am sorry you are feeling pain right now. I know when I am going through something (like right now) I have a hard time expressing myself as well.

The whole reason I am still a member here, still participating in the Secret santa and still posting daily on the support forum is not because I think any of you are big ole meanies and I am tired of trying to prove myself.

I completely understand where you are coming from and I don't think you need to explain yourself any further. Thank you.

So, when Hamm asked who the shoe fits for, there were a few posters that took the statement about asking for charity the wrong way and it was my public plea to them to reflect for themselves, that Hamm was not trying to chastise anyone. It wasn't intended for anyone posting in that thread, but to a certain few who were reading, who are still reading. It also was for me, a self~reflective post, if you will. Just so everyone knows... I was not chastising anyone for asking for help. I was simply stating how I feel IRT asking for charity for ME. It is not my job to decide who is more deserving. It is my job to reflect on my situation only. I can see how someone would be upset if I said "I don't think people should ask for charity if there is someone worse off then them". But that is not what I said, at all. Nor is it what I meant.

There should be no shame in asking for help. It is my honor to post along side all the women in this community and I take pleasure in your company year round.

Again, I'm sorry I didn't articulate myself better earlier.
No there shouldn't be, not if you truly need it. That's what charity is there for.

[Bohemian]

NN :hug: Thanks.

[Tweet]

UM. How did Mogey Know where EM lives?


Ok, Amy G..are you still wanting to call us a tad paranoid? This is the exact shit I'm talking about. I don't trust people with my info because of this stuff. There are a handful of people that do have my information and that's as far as I'm willing to let it get. No one new will be getting it because listen,a) KB was someone I posted alongside for years..she had my info. "Nuff said there, and b) people like Cateyes come along and manage to get people's information. *I"m* not being paranoid here, obviously this does happen.So, even donating gently used toys around my home isn't going to work ..because of the assholios .My only point was that they are the ones to blame, not us worried folk. We're not paranoid.

NN, that was a very sweet apology and I'm sorry if I added to making you feel sad. I am not at all trying to. I really do wish there were a way to make it work . I'm pretty sure my soul doesn't need searching..I've thought about this long and hard and I'm sure I've made the right choice, I just feel badly that it has to be.

eta disregard the part about my soul. I had not yet read your post, NN, about what you were referring to. I'm still not quite sure why you'd have to search yours, either..you are a kind person. I am very sorry that you are feeling pain. This is a very difficult time of year for me as well because I miss my mother so much. I somewhat understand where you are coming from.Hugs.

[Nipple_nectar]

snip> I think it's just for some, we have not wept hard enough or searched our souls deep enough to find resolve in this tsunami of instability and hard times.

The overwhelming sense of lost hope rings louder as each of us struggles to hang on to what little hope we have. Whether it be finances, mental health, personal loss or physical pain~ we all can relate to feeling fearful and the powerlessness that often accompanies it.<snip


snip>I'm pretty sure my soul doesn't need searching..I've thought about this long and hard and I'm sure I've made the right choice, I just feel badly that it has to be.

I'm gonna say this one more time because I don't want anyone to think I am suggesting soul searching for ANYONE BUT MYSELF. That statement does not apply to anyone else that posted in this thread.

The above statement made by me was about me, folks. I am sorry that I wasn't able to effectively articulate this earlier. I hope this ends the misconception, once and for all.

I cannot even begin to know what others are thinking, considering or if they are indeed in need of soul searching.

[Nipple_nectar]

And, er, I am a day late and a dollar short as usual!