Maybe I could have liked this George Bush.

[JudyJudyJudy]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/09/bush-says-creation-incompatible-evolution/

Thoughts?

[AuLait]

I know many Christians who feel that way about evolution, and I do as well.

I like the interview. He sounded very human and real in it.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I know a lot of Christians like that, too. However, he has always come across as so extreme.

[QuiltyConscience]

You feeling okay Judy??



That was my first thought...:hugegrin:

[JudyJudyJudy]

Actually I'm not feeling okay. "lol9"

[QuiltyConscience]

Well, That explains this thread title..


Anyway, Liking a guy and thinking he's a good president are two entirely different matters. I always thought the guy was likeable.

[NewMum]

Asked about creation and evolution, Bush said: "I think you can have both. I think evolution can -- you're getting me way out of my lane here. I'm just a simple president. But it's, I think that God created the earth, created the world; I think the creation of the world is so mysterious it requires something as large as an almighty and I don't think it's incompatible with the scientific proof that there is evolution."

I was brought up in a Catholic school. We were taught this. (Oops, the diocese is sure to come after me now!)
We were taught not to take all of the Bible literally. We were taught that God did create the universe and everything in it, but that it wasn't like *snap fingers* and it's there. It took a long time... time enough for everything to evolve into what it is today.

Anyway, Liking a guy and thinking he's a good president are two entirely different matters. I always thought the guy was likeable.
I agree with this, too.

[Justicedog]

Maybe that's the GWB those of us who haven't hated him for the past 8 years saw.

[Babyblue]

My belief in how the world came to be is neither strict evolution nor bible based. God can make whatever he wants to happen happen, but evolution also does not always take thousands of years to happen, humans are much taller and bigger on average then a hundred or two hundred years ago. If you take a huge draft horse and let it loose with mustangs, in as little as 2 generations or less the offspring will be small and wiry again because they need to drastically evolve to survive.

[still_me]

http://www.doesgodexist.com/ I've posted this site before. It talks about what GWB is saying, but at more levels.

Oh, I wish he would have just been his own person if this is whole he really is. Maybe things would have been a lot different, but you are judged by the company you keep.

[lisanvenice]

I didn't hate GWB when he was running, I just like Al Gore better. I didn't start to dislike him until when he proclaimed that he would for his inexperience with the people he surrounded himself with and with few exceptions he reached back to the Nixon administration for some of the scariest farthest right folk he could find. Then there was the stirring up of the religious base where basically everyone who didn't support him was a minion of Satan then there was the continuation of Reaganomics and then the final was the incompetence. I didn't put the war in Iraq in there because for the first few months I supported that because I didn't believe that any President would lie us into a war, there HAD to be intelligence that Saddam not only had WMD but was connected to Bin Ladden AND was willing to use them. By the time Katrina happened I was so very done and hate was a pretty much summed it up.

I am sure he is a perfectly nice man but the people around him are not and the fact that he let them run amuck with my country makes me and many other cranky. All of this to say that even the most left leaning of us did not start out hating, just preferring a different choice.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Maybe that's the GWB those of us who haven't hated him for the past 8 years saw.
I'm not so sure about that. He played so hard to the "Religious Right" that he appeared far more extreme in his views than he showed in that article.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I agree, Lisa, except I thought I liked him more than I liked Gore. I even voted for GWB the first time. :blush2:

[zanie]

I know many Christians who feel that way about evolution, and I do as well.

I like the interview. He sounded very human and real in it.If it took so many years for this evolutionary process, how do you explain death? There was said to be no death before Adam, so how would things have died off and evolved into other things?

How does that fit in with the story of the Garden of Eden? Or do you just believe that part was a fairy tale?

(Looking for honest conversation, not judging.)

[AuLait]

If it took so many years for this evolutionary process, how do you explain death? There was said to be no death before Adam, so how would things have died off and evolved into other things?

How does that fit in with the story of the Garden of Eden? Or do you just believe that part was a fairy tale?

(Looking for honest conversation, not judging.)

The Biblical creation story gives us the overview of the process, not many details. I'm saying that evolution could be part of the details, and perhaps might not have occurred until after the Garden of Eden or even the Flood. I do not believe that evolution is the whole creation story. I believe that God could have used evolution as part of the creation and development of species. I think both concepts can be compatible.

I don't know the answers to your questions because honestly its not something I've spent a lot of time thinking about. I bet there are a few websites out there with lots to say though :) I'm content with the idea that there could be more to the story of creation than what was presented in Genesis.

[JudyJudyJudy]

AuLait, do you consider yourself to be a Bible literalist?

[hidesome]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/09/bush-says-creation-incompatible-evolution/

Thoughts?

I think your vision is less clouded by use of the rear-view-mirror, Judy. For better or worse, I don't think George Bush has changed at all.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I think your vision is less clouded by use of the rear-view-mirror, Judy. For better or worse, I don't think George Bush has changed at all.
I disagree. In all areas other than this religious issue (as I said, he pandered to the literalists in the past, so I thought he believed like them), my rear-view mirror shows that he's a piece of shit and the worst president we ever had.

[AuLait]

AuLait, do you consider yourself to be a Bible literalist?

Mmm... don't know. I guess I'd be closer to a literalist than a non-literalist :) I can't classify myself completely either way because I take each story or passage and try to understand what was being said based on my (limited) understanding of God, the time period, and the audience to whom it was originally directed. Some times that leads me to take a literal interpretation of what I'm reading, and other times it leads me to take a more figurative appraisal of the passage.

What I'm not willing to do, for instance, is write off evolution as a whole just because its not specifically referenced in the Biblical creation story. The Bible says a lot. It also leaves a lot unsaid. I think Christians often miss what hasn't been said. That sounds counter-intuitive, but sometimes realizing what isn't there can be just as useful as seeing what IS there.

[JudyJudyJudy]

That makes sense. :)

[hidesome]

The Bible was written 2000 or more years ago. It was written, and rewritten, many times in the languages of the time using concepts, scientific and otherwise, that were commonplace at the time. The Bible doesn't have much to say about gravity. I'll assert that the reason was that the entire concept of gravity simply didn't exist and nobody could understand the words. Furthermore, I doubt that Jesus came here to teach us about gravity and therefore there are precious few parables about gravity. Few scholars, religious, scientific, or otherwise would deny that gravity exists just because the Bible fails to mention it. It is the same with evolution. Biblical literalists have their heads in the sand. Many times I find they do not have the foggiest idea what the actual origins of the Book they claim to take literally are. They see a false dichotomy between religion and scientific understanding. Some scientists also take this view because they believe science is a pure form of understanding. Both are incorrect in my view. While it is true that religion is not science, and science is not religion, they are not mutually exclusive except in the constructs of the zealots both religious and scientific.

[JudyJudyJudy]

hidesome, believe it or not, I agree with you. While I don't personally believe in a higher being and don't follow a religion, I agree that religion and science are not mutually exclusive, assuming, of course, that a person is not a Bible literalist.

[Iconoclast]

"I'm just a simple president"
I agree with this much, being an athiest, the rest doesn't interest me. I never disliked GW b/c I thought he was "evil," (I don't believe in evil either actually, lol) I dislike him because he is a simpleton. I am certain stupidity exists, and I have an intense dislike for it. My own personal prejudice.

[still_me]

I love this saying

It is Scientist VS. Preachers
Not Science Vs. The Bible

I wonder how Bible literalists explain science. They think that God created everything, right? So why couldn't he dabble in Science too?

[zanie]

I think it's kinda cute, Judy, how you admit to liking the guy now because he agrees with you in bashing the literal Bible believers. I mean, that's all this is about, correct? Your judgment and jury of a person's character is directly related to their belief of God being closest with your own.

This is not a new concept, just interesting that you would so boldly announce this.

GHWB has proclaimed in earlier years that there is more than one path to the Almighty, so, indeed, his view of Christianity/God/etc. has certainly NOT faltered since his presidency.


Anyway, many scientists believe in God, and trying to connect the story of Creation with the story of evolution is nothing new under the sun. The theory of evolution is based upon something from nothing and the story of Creation is that of a creator.

It has to be one way or the other.

Hidesome... regarding gravity: Gravity and Scripture
Two Bible references are helpful in considering the nature of gravity and physical science in general. First, Colossians 1:17 explains that Christ is before all things, and by Him all things consist. The Greek verb for consist (sunistao) means to cohere, preserve, or hold together. Extrabiblical Greek use of this word pictures a container holding water within itself. The word is used in Colossians in the perfect tense, which normally implies a present continuing state arising from a completed past action. One physical mechanism used is obviously gravity, established by the Creator and still maintained without flaw today. Consider the alternative; if gravity ceased for one moment, instant chaos surely would result. All heavenly objects, including the earth, moon and stars, would no longer hold together. Everything would immediately disintegrate into small fragments.

A second reference, Hebrews 1:3, declares that Christ upholds all things by the word of His power. Uphold (phero) again describes the sustaining or maintaining of all things, including gravity. The word uphold in this verse means much more than simply supporting a weight. It includes control of all the ongoing motions and changes within the universe. This infinite task is managed by the Lord’s almighty Word, whereby the universe itself was first called into being. Gravity, the ‘mystery force’, which is poorly understood after nearly four centuries of research, is one of the manifestations of this awesome divine upholding.

[hidesome]

I think it's kinda cute, Judy, how you admit to liking the guy now because he agrees with you in bashing the literal Bible believers. I mean, that's all this is about, correct? Your judgment and jury of a person's character is directly related to their belief of God being closest with your own.

This is not a new concept, just interesting that you would so boldly announce this.

GHWB has proclaimed in earlier years that there is more than one path to the Almighty, so, indeed, his view of Christianity/God/etc. has certainly NOT faltered since his presidency.


Anyway, many scientists believe in God, and trying to connect the story of Creation with the story of evolution is nothing new under the sun. The theory of evolution is based upon something from nothing and the story of Creation is that of a creator.

It has to be one way or the other.

Hidesome... regarding gravity: Gravity and Scripture
Two Bible references are helpful in considering the nature of gravity and physical science in general. First, Colossians 1:17 explains that Christ is before all things, and by Him all things consist. The Greek verb for consist (sunistao) means to cohere, preserve, or hold together. Extrabiblical Greek use of this word pictures a container holding water within itself. The word is used in Colossians in the perfect tense, which normally implies a present continuing state arising from a completed past action. One physical mechanism used is obviously gravity, established by the Creator and still maintained without flaw today. Consider the alternative; if gravity ceased for one moment, instant chaos surely would result. All heavenly objects, including the earth, moon and stars, would no longer hold together. Everything would immediately disintegrate into small fragments.

A second reference, Hebrews 1:3, declares that Christ upholds all things by the word of His power. Uphold (phero) again describes the sustaining or maintaining of all things, including gravity. The word uphold in this verse means much more than simply supporting a weight. It includes control of all the ongoing motions and changes within the universe. This infinite task is managed by the Lord’s almighty Word, whereby the universe itself was first called into being. Gravity, the ‘mystery force’, which is poorly understood after nearly four centuries of research, is one of the manifestations of this awesome divine upholding.

Interesting. Perhaps religion has failed us less on gravity than science has.