Frustrated with Teacher (long)

[cream_city]

Mrs. R, my son's kindergarten teacher, proposed that Simon earn time with the gifted and talented teacher 1x/week if he was able to practice good behavior.

She sent home the behavior chart she was planning to start using this week on Friday -- it's insane. I had said I preferred not to use a behavior chart last fall, and I thought things were going to be much looser than a formal chart.

Well, this chart is designed basically for him to fail. Not that she intended that, I'm sure. But I feel like she dangled the g&t time in order to get us to accept a behavior chart.

The chart lists SEVEN different time periods during each day. On a scale of 1-3, he has to earn ALL 2s and 3s in order to see the g&t teacher. If he earns all 2s and 3s on a given day, he is given a sticker. He has to earn 4 stickers/week (which since he is seeing the teacher on Friday a.m., would mean a sticker M-Th).

And she's going to send this chart home EVERY day.

Honestly, I know he will never earn time with the g&t teacher. And I feel like it's actually going to make his behavior worse. If he gets a single 1, after all, he already knows the rest of the week doesn't matter. And yet he has to go through the discouraging process of bringing home his behavior chart each day, and feel frustrated that he never gets to see the g&t teacher.

I feel like this will make school all about behavior and not about learning or socializing with other kids. I mean, kids act out from time to time. I feel like her expectations are unreasonable.

And I really don't like that she's tying academic challenge to behavior. Honestly, I feel like his behavior will be better if he's not bored.

[Suzette]

Does she average the seven different time periods then decide if he gets a 1,2, or 3 for the day?

[Justicedog]

G&T in Kindergarten? They don't start that until 3rd grade here. Does he have disabilities, and IEP? Why shouldn't he be expected to behave in school? I think I'm missing some back history.

[Elffriend]

I don't understand time with the G&T teacher being tied into behavior at all. He either is G&T or he isn't. If he is, he should have time with the teacher, regardless of his behavior. Sometimes G&T kids act out because they are bored in a regular classroom.

[MoonBound]

That seems like too much. Learning should not only be for the good kids.

[Justicedog]

I don't understand time with the G&T teacher being tied into behavior at all. He either is G&T or he isn't. If he is, he should have time with the teacher, regardless of his behavior. Sometimes G&T kids act out because they are bored in a regular classroom.


I can see it being tied to behavior if he's acting up with the G&T teacher.

What acting out is he doing? What are they doing to prevent it? Is it b/c he gets his work done prior to others and then doesn't have anything else to do?

[QuiltyConscience]

What does a kindergarten teacher do in G & T? Academic challenges for a 5 yo seem bit much, IMO. This all just sounds weird to me.

[cream_city]

He hasn't seen the g&t teacher yet, so he's not acting out with her. They don't usually start it until 3rd grade here, either, but she had an open spot and Simon is pretty far ahead with academics at this point.

I don't think it's about "academic challenge" so much as giving him a little bit of time (like 1 hour I think) to go more in-depth into things that really interest him. For example, he's really into geography right now. But he doesn't like that 2D maps distort the size of things like Greenland. So he came up with the idea of making a globe. We got him a styrofoam ball, he paper mached (sp?) it himself with flour and water and newspaper, and has so far gotten it painted blue. We didn't suggest any of this, we only helped get the styrofoam ball.

I do think he should behave. But the 1,2,3s *aren't* averaged for the day. If he gets a single 1 at any time, he misses the g&t time.

I agree he should be expected to behave. But if someone picked my worst two habits and told me I could never mess up and do them, I know no matter how hard I tried I'd probably slip up once!

[cream_city]

What acting out is he doing? What are they doing to prevent it? Is it b/c he gets his work done prior to others and then doesn't have anything else to do?

The two behaviors are to "hug his words" (I guess he interrupts/talks out of turn -- he's very talkative). The other is to walk in the hall. In terms of the hall thing -- I guess sometimes he hops or spins. Yes, not a great thing. But he does have ADHD and sensory issues, so it is part of his way of discharging energy.

I agree he shouldn't do either of these. But with ADHD and sensory issues, I think it would be challenging to control his (disruptive) coping mechanism.

Yes, he is very well behaved when engaged in work. When he finishes ahead of people or during transition/group times is when he talks to much or gets too physically active.

[cream_city]

I don't understand time with the G&T teacher being tied into behavior at all. He either is G&T or he isn't. If he is, he should have time with the teacher, regardless of his behavior. Sometimes G&T kids act out because they are bored in a regular classroom.

Exactly.

[Nanimal]

The whole G and T time is strange.

On just the chart, we had a somewhat similar chart for our ds in kindy (he is now in 1st and the chart is close to being phased out after many iterations). The chart itself is helpful, ime, to see where the tough times of day are (transitions, desk time, etc) that can help you pinpoint what is going on during his day.

It is the "scoring" part that is unhelpful/not useful at this point. On the similar chart ds had, it had the "periods" of time down the right side and across the top were boxes for "worked independently" (the best option), "worked with help", "participated", and "did not participate." The teacher/aide check the appropriate box to reflect ds's actions. It allowed us to encourage ds to just participate in those activities that were the hardest and praise for those he did himself and for the chart to change as the "did not particpate" became irrelevant, etc.

The question I would ask is what are you or the teacher trying to achieve and is the chart going to help you do that. In our case, we were able to see ds's behavior was not as bad as we thought and had an independent record of his improvement over time.

[Peeka2]

Wow, I know nothing of his issues but it sounds to me like they are not understanding his behavior problems at all. None of what he is doing sounds that "bad" to me. Out of place maybe but if he isn't being challenged then I would "expect" these types of behaviors out of just plain boredom. I would think that seeing the G&T teacher would help his bordom and shouldn't be used against him.

[Amy_G_]

Tell her you think it is inappropriate to tie his ADHD and sensory issue behaviors to academic enrichment with the G&T teacher.
go talk to the G&T teacher about the issue, the school counselor and the principal if necessary.
If he is misbehaving in class because he is bored, the trips to the G&T teacher MAY help, but with it one day a week, it will probably NOT help much.
His ADHD and Sensory issues should be handled in an IEP, and encouraging his academic advancement should not be used as a reward.

[Michele]

G&T in Kindergarten? They don't start that until 3rd grade here. Does he have disabilities, and IEP? Why shouldn't he be expected to behave in school? I think I'm missing some back history.

Only read this far, but ITA. Kdg is too soon for G & T activities and designation. Many kids at this age are verbally bright or ahead in a particular or even numerous areas because of their home environment. After 3-4 years of school, the vast majority of kids even out with their peers as their peers get exposure to concepts, vocabulary, and experiences that the kid who was ahead in the early grades was exposed to prior to attending school. KDG should be more about socialization and learning how to function in a classroom setting which your DC will need to be able to do even if he/she is identified gifted in the future.

[cream_city]

Tell her you think it is inappropriate to tie his ADHD and sensory issue behaviors to academic enrichment with the G&T teacher.
go talk to the G&T teacher about the issue, the school counselor and the principal if necessary.
If he is misbehaving in class because he is bored, the trips to the G&T teacher MAY help, but with it one day a week, it will probably NOT help much.
His ADHD and Sensory issues should be handled in an IEP, and encouraging his academic advancement should not be used as a reward.

He won't qualify for services under an IEP because it's not affecting his academic performance.

[maksmom]

It doesn't sound like cream's son is being labled G&T, just that they are trying to keep him challenged and therefore not bored. My oldest dd was lucky enough to have a K teacher who made sure that she had extra "fun" work to keep her busy during those down times, when everyone was still working and she was done. Her thing was reading and the teacher really encouraged that. She loved/s school. If she had been left bored she certainly could have developed problems in school.

[cream_city]

Only read this far, but ITA. Kdg is too soon for G & T activities and designation. Many kids at this age are verbally bright or ahead in a particular or even numerous areas because of their home environment. After 3-4 years of school, the vast majority of kids even out with their peers as their peers get exposure to concepts, vocabulary, and experiences that the kid who was ahead in the early grades was exposed to prior to attending school. KDG should be more about socialization and learning how to function in a classroom setting which your DC will need to be able to do even if he/she is identified gifted in the future.

If they'd suggested an hour with the gifted and talented teacher (one other kid from his class was going to be going with him, for social skills practice -- she/he wasn't going to need a behavior chart though), would you have said "no"?

[cream_city]

Tell her you think it is inappropriate to tie his ADHD and sensory issue behaviors to academic enrichment with the G&T teacher.
go talk to the G&T teacher about the issue, the school counselor and the principal if necessary.
If he is misbehaving in class because he is bored, the trips to the G&T teacher MAY help, but with it one day a week, it will probably NOT help much..

I have actually done most of this today! I wrote the teacher that I didn't want to pursue the time with the g&t teacher, and didn't want him to do the behavior chart. Because I totally agree, one hour a week with the g&t teacher is not going to make much difference.

I called the principal and asked to meet with her and the guidance counselor. I told her that I was interested in seeing if there was some sort of enrichment that could be offered to Simon, perhaps in reading or science. (I'm thinking something that would be part of his curriculum -- like doing reading with first graders or he and a few of the more advanced kids being given more challenging work).

The principal said we probably won't be able to meet for three weeks because she wants to include the g&t teacher, Simon's teacher, the school system's psychologist and the guidance counselor. Obviously it's going to be a Herculean feat to get everyone in the same room at the same time.

[cream_city]

Sorry for the serial posting -- I'm obviously pretty upset about this right now. Deep breath. Sleep deprivation with a 6 week old doesn't help in giving one perspective.

Anyway, I think his teacher may be sort of pissed that I pulled the plug on the behavior chart. She hasn't e-mailed me back, and she usually does right away.

[Amy_G_]

The behavior chart might be useful,
but at first it should just be for tracking his behavior for him and for you and for the teacher to identify the times of day that are the hardest for him and give him visual reminder of what he needs to work on.

I would be careful as to what is tied to the behavior chart, but definitely not academic enrichment in this manner. some teachers do candy, or a goodie box to choose a pencil, eraser or small toy for the kids that make improvement. and that should be the goal, to make improvement, because all of us are going to have days when we don't do what is expected 100% of the time.

[Justicedog]

Sorry for the serial posting -- I'm obviously pretty upset about this right now. Deep breath. Sleep deprivation with a 6 week old doesn't help in giving one perspective.

Anyway, I think his teacher may be sort of pissed that I pulled the plug on the behavior chart. She hasn't e-mailed me back, and she usually does right away.


I don't know. If the principal informed her that you were wanting a meeting, then I'd think she'd figure it'll be covered in the meeting. Or, maybe she doesn't know what to suggest at this point.

[SingingMom]

A behavior chart for a kid this age (and I don't love behavior charts) should be a daily-rewards situation. Maybe even hourly. If you really want to change behaviors, first, you have to offer an alternate behavior. Instead of skipping or spinning, he walks- but with sensory issues, he may need an alternate behavior. A ball he can squeeze or whatever while he is walking.

Then, he should be rewarded frequently. At first, maybe even hourly.

What I DO like about behavior charts is that they provide a history and accountability on both sides. On a day when the teacher is short on sleep and cranky, your kiddo's behavior may seem worse to her but really be no different. A chart may help keep that part of it under control.

I hate using enrichment as a motivator, personally. If a kid excels at something then a minimum level of academic achievement and social behavior should be all that is necessary to keep it going, IMO.

[steelady]

Hey there!

To my known biased eye, it sounds like the teacher still doesn't "get" Simon or what his issues are. Assuming for a moment, that his behavioral issues are related to the sensory and ADHD, providing more "incentives"' won't do much in a positive way because he still lacks the basic tools to control his own behavior. IMHO, it will likely only serve to increase his anxiety because on top of having to control himself when he is bored, you have now added what can become the unobtainable-control long enough to get to do something fun. It's a double whammy on his self-esteem: he's bored, so his brain wanders-resulting in his needing to impose more control over himself, while in a heightened state of anxiety because of sensory problems.

Not setting him up to succeed.

I do agree that a behavior chart can be useful to discern when he needs a bit of help, which can then be transitioned into some sort of reward system when the underlying issues have been addressed.

Having said that, two things popped out at me. 1. his "team" sounds just like an IEP team (which means nothing, just something that struck me) which may be a good thing-but ask that the OT also be present. 2. I always thought the IEP thing was when the child was not performing up to what they can (based upon IQ), not that they can meet the minimum requirements set by the state. I'll dig around for why I think that. I disagree that your child doesn't need an IEP, but I'm sure my feeling is more based upon what the spirit of the law is, not how it is implemented in schools.

[Amy_G_]

yes steelady, usually the IEP will not be put into place unless he's failing in a certain area. In kindergarten I would think that failing in behavior would be an area of concern, but they usually will only see if the "disability" impacts academics for the child. a 504 may or may not apply if it's not "bad enough' for an IEP.

[cream_city]

steel -- the issue for his anxiety is exactly what I was concerned with, though I didn't put it as clearly as you! Anxiety is a huge issue for him, too. I posted just a couple days ago how now that his anxiety over the bay has been resolved, he seems to be doing much better (even according to this teacher).

I need to learn more about 504s. His therapist and OT are the ones who have been very clear that they don't think his problems --even behaviorally -- would meet the requirements for IEP accomodations.

What is a 504? How is it different?

[steelady]

Please visit www.wrightslaw.org, for more information from a legal perspective, but here is what I do know:

Section 504 is a part of the American with Disabilities Act (ADA) that refers to making reasonable accommodations (such as wheelchair ramps) so that people with disabilities can access the same opportunities as the abled. This is used to cover children who, though they have special needs, do not require special instructions or services. Children with a 504 have special accommodations-such as extra time for test taking or alternative assignments, etc.

So, in your son's case, a 504 may be useful to provide him more frequent breaks, a quiet place in the classroom, maybe a place for him to bounce around or run around or something. However, he would be expected to do the same work, with the same goals, as all the other children. An IEP individualizes these goals.

Hope that helped.

http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/sec504.index.htm

[Amy_G_]

yes a 504 could be used to give him something to "play with" in the hallway to get rid of excess energy, more breaks or other accomodations since he appears capable of doing the same or higher level of work.

[Michele]

If they'd suggested an hour with the gifted and talented teacher (one other kid from his class was going to be going with him, for social skills practice -- she/he wasn't going to need a behavior chart though), would you have said "no"?

With the restrictions they are placing on his participation, yes, I would have said no.

[cream_city]

Yes, now that I know the restrictions, I have said no. Otherwise, I just felt like why not? It seemed like a positive opportunity to me.

[cream_city]

Thank you for the 504 info and link. My husband and I are going to look into it right away.

[Michele]

I get that Creme. It is hard with schools because as parents we hear about programs and opportunities and of course, we want our kids to have that enrichment. I have found that often, the programs aren't all they they are cracked up to be--especially at the k-5 level. I am certain that you are providing plenty of enrichment for him as it is.

[bfmomworries]

I am glad someone brought up a 504 plan. That is exactly what I would have suggested as well.

I have several students that for one reason or another didn't qualify for an IEP, but still get many accommodations to their behavior, attention span, or whatever due to having it in their 504.

Good luck, and I hope it works out soon!

Also, I did agree with the others that mentioned setting such a long range goal for him, 4 out of 4 days of good behavior is too hard for the start of any behavior plan (I deal with 5th graders and we do day by day daily rewards). I would think that (again as already mentioned) a kinder may need class period by class period or hourly by hourly at least to get the feel for the expectations.

One last thing, I had a student in 3rd grade once that was a bouncer and a spinner in the halls. Not everyday, but enough days that he certainly drove his teacher crazy. I was the special ed teacher assigned to his classroom, but he had no IEP, so technically he wasn't on my service if you will. I found scraps of old fabrics of various textures, and gave him one or two of those a day to put into his pocket and when he got the urge/need to bounce or spin, he would just take that scrap of fabric out and hold it, stroke it, squeeze it whatever he felt he needed to do, but it seemed to center him.

Againa, good luck, sounds like you are doing great by him, keep it up!

[Tweet]

The two behaviors are to "hug his words" (I guess he interrupts/talks out of turn -- he's very talkative). The other is to walk in the hall. In terms of the hall thing -- I guess sometimes he hops or spins. Yes, not a great thing. But he does have ADHD and sensory issues, so it is part of his way of discharging energy.

I agree he shouldn't do either of these. But with ADHD and sensory issues, I think it would be challenging to control his (disruptive) coping mechanism.

Yes, he is very well behaved when engaged in work. When he finishes ahead of people or during transition/group times is when he talks to much or gets too physically active.

I'm only here, but yes, that does seem "off" to me. And I really don't think I like sensory issues having any sort of consequence(or in this case, counting AGAINST him). Yes, the goal is to meet their sensory needs to that those things don't happen, but it's very been much our experience with DS ( and any sensory kid I know) that when they've got a hardcore sensory issue, it cannot be helped. It just can't. So, you give them tools and eventually it gets better. (I'm assuming he's got his sensory needs addressed in his IEP? ) .

Does she know very much about SPD? I totally recommend seeing if she'd be willing to read The Out of Sync Child.

[cream_city]

bfmom and Tweet -- the teacher is aware of his sensory issues, and both his OT (we don't go through the school for OT) and his therapist have spoken with the teacher and the therapist actually offered to lend the teacher some sensory objects (like the fabric) for him to work with to learn to self-regulate. The therapist also sent the teacher an article on working with sensory kids in the classroom (written from a teacher's perspective).

But the teacher has not taken these offers up. Sigh.

I just have to remember that the teacher has gone out of her way recently to tell us how much better he's doing. I think part of my resistance to the behavior chart (I wish I could scan it and show you how completely overwhelming it looks!) is that things ARE getting better. Why introduce this whole new element?

[cream_city]

The teacher never responded to my e-mail. But he came home without a behavior chart. From what he said, it *sounds like* she just told him that his mother wouldn't "let" him do it (i.e., earn time with the g&t teacher).

He seemed fine with it. Since he's never met with the g&t teacher, it isn't like he's missing out on anything he's gotten to do before. (And that's another thing -- I would think he would have gotten to meet with her 1x before the chart started so that he at least knew what he was trying to earn!)

I have to try not to think about this today. I am EXHAUSTED (I've been up since 4:30 with Anna, finally got her to sleep, and then could hear Simon stirring in his room before 6 a.m), and have a huge work meeting I have to go in for, even though I'm on leave.

[Tweet]

She kind of sounds like a pain about this,tbh. He's pretty young still..he's my dd's age. DD would need a sit down to go over a big ole chart! That is so odd. And you wouldn't let him..lol. I'm all for charts,but that one just sounded weird and not a good fit for your kid, from what you've said here about him.

Try to get some sleep!!

[steelady]

I've been thinking of you and this situation. I, personally, feel (based upon what you wrote and my own experiences) that the teacher has any idea what sensory problems are. It is eerily reminiscent of the mentality that thinks one just needs to snap out of it, rather than have depression, or that an addict just needs more will power.

Can you switch him to another class (which may be weird this late in the year) or get the school to highly encourage her to take classes/learn about SPD?

[ZacKat]

Sorry, I'm skipping over from the first page, but if he sounds very intelligent. Is he perhaps bored with kindergarten and thus the behavior?

[cream_city]

I don't think I'll have him switch classes, because I want to seem supportive of her. I don't want him to sense that I'm at odds with her or undermine her. With some kids, that would be fine, but Simon catches onto these things pretty quickly and I think it would make him really test his next teacher's authority.

His therapist thinks the teacher is just very "problem" focused -- she focuses on difficulties and then doesn't see his strengths. One of the things she complained to me about at the fall conference and mentioned with the therapist was how he tries to get kids' attention in a disruptive way, like sticking two of those thin markers in his ears and trying to get people to laugh.

Some adults still think stuff like that is funny.

Right now I think I'm going to try and focus on getting things squared away with the school for next year. Also, if they realize what a pita we are planning on being, they'll hopefully put a lot of thought into which teacher he gets (we aren't allowed to request teachers).

I haven't had a chance to look at 504s yet, but it's on my to-do list. I am planning on bringing both enrichment opportunities as well as a 504 up at the "big meeting" (not that it's even been scheduled yet).

[Tweet]

I've been thinking of you and this situation. I, personally, feel (based upon what you wrote and my own experiences) that the teacher has any idea what sensory problems are. It is eerily reminiscent of the mentality that thinks one just needs to snap out of it, rather than have depression, or that an addict just needs more will power.

Can you switch him to another class (which may be weird this late in the year) or get the school to highly encourage her to take classes/learn about SPD?

ICAM!! That's what I think. And it's a damned shame that she doesn't seem eager to educate herself. I'd still give her my Out of Sync Child book,lol.