Another S/O - African American

[tata]

I have wanted (and maybe I already have) to discuss the term "African American" and some issues I take with it's use (particularly in the USA) to describe people who have brown or black skin color.

First of all, most of the black people I know and encounter are not from Africa. My mom is German, but she actually prefers being referred to as an "American" over being called a "German American." This is also true of a man I know who is originally from Cuba and another man I know originally from Mexico.

Secondly - and this is the point I'd like to emphasize and hopefully discuss in greater length - not all people in Africa have brown or black skin color. I find the term to be a bit misleading since it is assumed (at least in the parts of the USA that I have lived) that "African Americans" (and maybe even Africans) have brown or black skin color.

Finally, if the politically correct way to refer to someone with brown or black skin (and I'm not entirely convinced it is) is "African American", then what would be the politically correct terminology for everyone else in this country whose skin color is not brown or black?

Should there be this terminology? Do you use it? Why or why not?

Thoughts?

Discuss.

[hidesome]

I agree with your assessment. I frequently refer to myself, particularly on applications etc., as a "Native American" to illustrate the politically-correct absurdity of such terms and their increasingly common misuse.

[QuiltyConscience]

I don't know. It gets pretty confusing to me. Things like this make no sense:
http://newsbusters.org/node/2783

This article is about peole who live in France.
Years after "new media" readers began to understand the consequences of French policies toward Islamic immigrants, CNN's anchor Carol Lin referred (on November 6th) to some of the participants in the Paris fiasco as African-American (apparently for lack of a better euphemism). Video available: Real Player or Windows Media

When the MSM seeks to use euphemisms to ignore the real issue, they run the risk of sounding stupid and bringing ridicule upon themselves. It would be far easier to identify correctly the rioters in the first place. It makes one wonder why they don't do things the easy way.

and
Lin’s comment came about 10 minutes into CNN’s 10pm EST Sunday Night, as reporter Chris Burns was reporting on the rioting in France. Burns reported: “The priority right now is to restore order before trying to deal with some of the underlying issues, but even after what [French President Jacque] Chirac said, we’re seeing more violence. What you could point out, though, is that there is at this point about half as many vehicles torched as the night before, so you might call that progress, Carol.”

“Hard to say,” Lin responded, “because it’s been 11 days since two African-American teenagers were killed, electrocuted during a police chase, which prompted all of this.”


So what if someone is not from the US? Canadians, Europeans?
Now, I am all for letting a group of people decide what they prefer to be called, and using that term. I am happy to go with the flow, but I do not believe that native french people refer to themselves as African-American.

[tata]

African-French? I dunno - that's weird.

[SingingMom]

How about French-African?

African American seems like an increasingly useless distinction to me, as fewer and fewer individuals of my acquaintance can be accurately described that way. But as it's not my adjective, I don't have strong feelings about other people using it. It carries cultural freight that's important to many people.

But I'd never refer to myself as a White American. Or even a Caramel American. Or a Heavily Freckled Orange Blossom Honey Colored American of Unknown Origin. But maybe I should.

[QuiltyConscience]

Why would it be weird if it were accurate?

[tata]

I think it'd be weird. Not because it's accurate or inaccurate - simply because IMO it isn't necessary. If one is born here or immigrated here, then he/she is American. I suppose I could insist on being referred to as a "German-Irish-American" or maybe even a "Texas-American" (since that's where I was born). But I think it takes too damn much effort to try to shove everyone into neat little politically correct boxes.

[BeanBabies]

I agree with your assessment. I frequently refer to myself, particularly on applications etc., as a "Native American" to illustrate the politically-correct absurdity of such terms and their increasingly common misuse.


DH used to always write in "Druid" just because. He enjoyed lambasting people who told him he couldn't put that down because it 'wasn't allowed'.

[still_me]

We are all Americans and it is time people took pride in that alone. Adding to it just makes sure that there are racial lines even more so.

[BeanBabies]

Maybe it's because African-Americans were identity-less for so long.

[still_me]

Maybe it's because African-Americans were identity-less for so long.


That is the thing though, they weren't. Even when they were slaves they kept their traditions and taught their children. Even with the worse environment for slaves (at least in our country) they passed down who they were.

I honestly feel bad for the people who were slaves because they didn't let it hold them back in their own minds. They stayed strong. They escaped and started families in Canada and in free states. It is a disservice, IMO, to those people with what has gone on after they were freed.

ETA: I don't mean to sound like that slaves should suck up what happened and move on either. It should be acknowledged because it was horrible. It should be talked about so it won't happen again. Basically, what I was trying to say is that it seems the generations now are more focus on the past than they are on the future and the present. I wasn't a huge Obama supporter when he first came onto the scene, but I did love how he embodied forward thinking.

[Earthmama]

I also disagree with the term, "African American" if the person has no geographical origin in Africa or America.

I think every couple of generations, whatever label we have assigned, "Negro, Black, etc) seems to develop a negative connotation and we're constantly trying to escape that. The older ones of course get worse and worse connotations as time goes along. Wasn't the "N-word" once used as a word to mean the race without meaning a derrogatory slur? I could be totally wrong about that, but I thought it had something to do with the country, Nigeria.

[QuiltyConscience]

I don't think the word originates from the word Nigeria. The region known as Nigeria was called ....something else 100 years ago.

The word "nigger" most likely comes form the Latin,french or spanish words for "black." And it probably was, at one time, neutral.

[tata]

Well, I know that some scientists use the term "negroid" to classify the origins of some forensic evidence from black people (yeah, I watch way too much "Forensic Files" and such). According to Merriam-Webster, it's Portuguese or Spanish which in turn came from Latin for "black." It also says at the www.m-w.com that it is "sometimes offensive."

So, back to a question I posted in the OP: what terminology is PC for other races? Are any of the white folks that post here offended by words like "honkey" or "cracker?"

[ColleenF30]

I'm white and I have been called worse.

[Tweet]

I use both AA and black, but mostly say "black" unless I know for sure said person is also from Africa. It doesn't make much sense to me if someone is not from Africa,though. However, I admit that I worry about being offensive when saying "black".

Hidesome, what is ridiculous about "Native American"?

[Tweet]

I am offended by cracker because it comes from slave owners cracking a whip at the back of a slave. I've been referred to as such ( in the same place where the term porch monkey was thrown about..lots of racial tension and hatred) and it was very,very upsetting to me.

I don't know where "honkey" comes from so not sure if it offends me.I don't care for the term "whitey" or "white devil",either.

[tata]

Tweet, when in doubt, lean for "brown" ;) When I was old enough to realize a racial difference between a friend of mine and myself (I'd wager it was my older brother who pointed it out to me), I distinctly recall asking my folks why they were called "black people" when they were clearly brown.

And I'm not hidesome, but I daresay that most people consider "Native Americans" to refer to the American Indian tribes that lived here before Europe came in and took over vs. a person born in the United States.

Oh hey, something else I just remembered. I have been involved IRL discussions during my college years about the way the US has "claimed" the use of the word "American," completely dismissing the rest of North America and South America. Any thoughts on that?

[ima062002]

Well, most people who came here came semi-freely. Some had to flee famine and persecution but they weren't forcefully dragged out of their homeland and treated like cattle. So I can see the "need" (for lack of a better word) for a term that expresses roots of the original country. I don't care much for the term either though. I think "black" is about as good a term as is "white", I mean how many "whites" are really "white". Personally I am rather pinkish, with a beige hue. I just wish we could get past the color altogether. I grew up in Europe and our forms for instance don't even have boxes to check off for race. Granted, when I was a kid everybody was white but that's changed for at least 30 years now and still nobody thinks of even recording skin color.

[tata]

I mean how many "whites" are really "white". Personally I am rather pinkish, with a beige hue.

I totally laughed at this! It reminded me of a comedian I saw years ago whose commentary argued against black people being referred to as "colored" since white people turn red when they blush, blue when they are cold, purple when they are angry and so on. It was quite hilarious.

I'm pretty pale, but I have a hint of olive. I'm no Snow White!

[EvilAmy]

It seems fairly split in at least the people I know. I've hear "I'm not African American, I'm a black American". I've also heard "I'm African American."

In the last form I had to fill out I was sorely tempted to mark the "other" option and fill it in with "Rom". During the summer when I donated blood I got a chuckle when they wanted to mark Latino/Hispanic as they were putting me through the little questionaire interview. She told me "I'm sorry I just assumed since you're soooo dark" (even with daily slatherings of SPF40+ I get rather dark from being in the greenhouse and outside all the time) I told her if she didn't belive me I could show her my Irish moon. It's full and fair as a lilly. She got a chuckle as she was Irish descent (fair skinned with beautiful red hair). I also explained that I was a mix of German/Rom/Norwegian/Irish.

[Amy_G_]

I think black people need to get together and figure out a term to be used world wide that they like, rather than to be "assigned" a term by the white society. I am partial to the world black, but others might not like it as much.

I'm not sure what term the rest of the world uses, but that might be a good starting point. what does the rest of the world use? black, AA, negro for race? will AA (the abreviation) come to be known to = black but nobody will say it spelled out anymore? like people say TV not television anymore.

[Amy_G_]

as for native american, well by definition if you are born here you are a native american. or you could be from "American Indian" descent and live elsewhere in the world, but be described as Native American meaning your race rather than where you were born.

[MoonBound]

I think African American refers to from Africa and American first and second generation - Dh's Nigerian uncle and his kids for example. Beyond that it seems silly. AA as an abbreviation Always makes me think Alcoholics anonymous. I dislike like that black has a bad connotation as it makes sense if you grant that white does.

Native Americans are Amerindians in my head. I totally hate it when people refer to Asian Indians as 'Dot not how Indians.'

Caucasian also irriates me as the people of the Caucasian mountain look like Arabs not European.

I hate that we have those boxes.

A friend of mine is the child of a Scot and a black American her dh is white American. They have two kids dd is darker than mom and ds is lighter than dad. She got pissed when the school labeled her son white after labeling her daughter black. Same mom, same dad, same race.

For the record if we are labeling can I state I am an Irish-Czech(to mean Bohemian)-Scottish-Blackfoot(Blackfoot)-German-White Russian Jew-Lakota-English-Romany-American. and Where's my box?

[Tweet]

Yeah, I don't have a box,either. I'm Italian and Cherokee with a dab of Irish.

[MadHatter]

I know in Europe they say African-American b/c when they say just "American" people tend to think "white." I like the term black, and AFAIK so does dh (black) but I do tend to relate more to the label Irish-American more so than (white) American because it reflects my immediate culture and I don't think there is one unified, specific white culture. I would say the same about the different Hispanic cultures.

I think when you don't acknowledge people's culture in attempt to be "color-blind" you can lose a big part of the person and their identity, but this might not be so easily seen by a person of the majority race.

[QuiltyConscience]

I think black people need to get together and figure out a term to be used world wide that they like, rather than to be "assigned" a term by the white society. I am partial to the world black, but others might not like it as much.

I'm not sure what term the rest of the world uses, but that might be a good starting point. what does the rest of the world use? black, AA, negro for race? will AA (the abreviation) come to be known to = black but nobody will say it spelled out anymore? like people say TV not television anymore.

How you propose we get all the black people to do that? I kinda chuckled at the idea of a huge Vegas convention where all the black people go to vote on a label.

Why would they have to do that anyway? I wouldn't expect every member of any particular race to agree on ..well much of anything, really. I would imagine it's more of a regional and personal thing.

[Amy_G_]

I don't mean they'd get together and vote. ;)
it was kind of tongue in cheek that we "white folk" really don't get to decide what blacks would like to be called.
"they" will tell us instead, like in general they've thrown negro out as unacceptable, and in many areas they've thrown black out as unacceptable. we'll have to see what they decide is ok next when realization that African American makes no sense in other countries, esp if you aren't born in America or Africa.

[tata]

I know in Europe they say African-American b/c when they say just "American" people tend to think "white."
This is really starting to tickle my funny bone. People with black or brown skin color having been born in, say, London and lived there their entire lives are still considered "African American," eh? Talk about misleading!

I think when you don't acknowledge people's culture in attempt to be "color-blind" you can lose a big part of the person and their identity, but this might not be so easily seen by a person of the majority race.
This is a very good point. This can be said of anyone, really, without regard to race/ethnicity/gender/so on.

[MadHatter]

This is really starting to tickle my funny bone. People with black or brown skin color having been born in, say, London and lived there their entire lives are still considered "African American," eh? Talk about misleading!



I didn't mean black people that are European :p

I meant when a European discusses an American that is black, they tend to say "Black American" or "African American," not just "American" because people over there generally ASSume American=white.

[tata]

Oh I see, MadHatter. I was going by your post and Cat's post upthread about the black French boys involved in the rioting.

[_Gypsy_]

This is slightly off topic and a bit of a vent. WHY does race have to be brought up in every story? My dad is a bigot, and after I move back there I am going to address this with him and his wife (and EVERYONE ELSE).

Why do they need to talk about "the black woman who lives down the block"? Why can't they tell me about "the woman who lives down the block"?

Why is the bread "over there next to the black man"?
Why can't the bread be "over there next to the man in the red shirt"?

Maybe it's because I'm not racist, but I am completely SICK of all the labels.

I mean, I understand how ethnicity and/or race is important for some medical conditions, and for some applications, or giving a physical description to the police or whatever, but why is actual skin color ALWAYS an issue?

Why can't people just check boxes for countries of heritage?

[KerryS]

When my sister was in the Peace Corps, she married a Gabonese man (who is Black, in case that needs to be state). They moved back to the states later. One of his hugest pet peeves was being referred to as African American. He would always state indignantly "I"m African, not African American."

[QuiltyConscience]

I always wonder what the boxes are for. Anytime I have a form that requires me to pick a race I wonder why the form giver is asking for that information - I doubt that they took the time to make the list of boxes for no reason.

I get sometimes it is a good idea to know who needs/uses services, marketing data is gathered this way...Still, I find that more and ore people don't have one accurate box to check.

[KerryS]

Tweet, when in doubt, lean for "brown" ;) When I was old enough to realize a racial difference between a friend of mine and myself (I'd wager it was my older brother who pointed it out to me), I distinctly recall asking my folks why they were called "black people" when they were clearly brown.

My socially naive 8yo daughter calls them "brown". I don't have the heart to correct her, because it just seems so sweet and innocent.

[Sassafras]

What an interesting concept. My best friend is an African American. She is white as snow, blue eyes, white blond hair and has UK roots. She was born in South Africa and is a US citizen now.
Guess my best friend is an African American. Wow! Very Interesting.

[KerryS]

Dave Matthews and Charlize Theron are both African Americans (at least, I assume they're now American).

[tata]

My socially naive 8yo daughter calls them "brown". I don't have the heart to correct her, because it just seems so sweet and innocent.
If you were to correct her, what would you ask her to say instead?

Dave Matthews and Charlize Theron are both African Americans (at least, I assume they're now American).
This is the point I wanted to discuss further. Most people I know personally IRL consider "African American" to mean "black" in what they perceive to be more politically correct. But Dave Matthews and Charlize Theron aren't black. That's why I find the term to be misleading.

I'd like to hear their perspective on this.

[KerryS]

If you were to correct her, what would you ask her to say instead?

I would explain to her that even though their skin is brown, that they're described as black people, not brown people.

[MadHatter]

This is slightly off topic and a bit of a vent. WHY does race have to be brought up in every story? My dad is a bigot, and after I move back there I am going to address this with him and his wife (and EVERYONE ELSE).

Why do they need to talk about "the black woman who lives down the block"? Why can't they tell me about "the woman who lives down the block"?

Why is the bread "over there next to the black man"?
Why can't the bread be "over there next to the man in the red shirt"?

Maybe it's because I'm not racist, but I am completely SICK of all the labels.

I mean, I understand how ethnicity and/or race is important for some medical conditions, and for some applications, or giving a physical description to the police or whatever, but why is actual skin color ALWAYS an issue?

That is a pet peeve of mine too, I notice A LOT of people do it- especially elderly.


My socially naive 8yo daughter calls them "brown". I don't have the heart to correct her, because it just seems so sweet and innocent.

My kids say brown too.

[SingingMom]

My kids say "brown" and I don't correct them anymore. I've decided that the kids are right and everyone else is wrong.

The kids are right. People are brown. I can't tell their ethnicity by looking at them. Maybe the next generation can argue about how wrong it is to call people "brown".

[_Gypsy_]

My socially naive 8yo daughter calls them "brown". I don't have the heart to correct her, because it just seems so sweet and innocent.

My kids and I are "peach" and our babysitter is "brown" when it comes up in I-Spy games or such.

[Earthmama]

This is slightly off topic and a bit of a vent. WHY does race have to be brought up in every story? My dad is a bigot, and after I move back there I am going to address this with him and his wife (and EVERYONE ELSE).

Why do they need to talk about "the black woman who lives down the block"? Why can't they tell me about "the woman who lives down the block"?

Why is the bread "over there next to the black man"?
Why can't the bread be "over there next to the man in the red shirt"?

Maybe it's because I'm not racist, but I am completely SICK of all the labels.

I mean, I understand how ethnicity and/or race is important for some medical conditions, and for some applications, or giving a physical description to the police or whatever, but why is actual skin color ALWAYS an issue?

Why can't people just check boxes for countries of heritage?


We label things to identify them in relation to us or items surrounding us.

Why should it be any less respectful to identify a person with the color of their skin than the color of their hair or their shirt?

I think the problem is not in assigning labels - that's all words are, after all - but in taking offense to them or using them in a way intended to offend.

[JudyJudyJudy]

This is slightly off topic and a bit of a vent. WHY does race have to be brought up in every story? My dad is a bigot, and after I move back there I am going to address this with him and his wife (and EVERYONE ELSE).

Why do they need to talk about "the black woman who lives down the block"? Why can't they tell me about "the woman who lives down the block"?

Why is the bread "over there next to the black man"?
Why can't the bread be "over there next to the man in the red shirt"?

Maybe it's because I'm not racist, but I am completely SICK of all the labels.
I see nothing wrong with using a person's color to help identify him. I actually think it gets ridiculous when people skirt around doing so in order to be PC. If there is a group of five men, and one is black, and you're trying to point him out to someone, why wouldn't you use his color?

If I go in somewhere, and I'm looking for my husband in a restaurant, it would be ridiculous for me to say, "I'm looking for my husband; he has dark hair and a green shirt." It's much easier for someone to know to whom I'm referring if I say, "He's a big hispanic guy."

Now, it's different if someone is telling a story about a hateful cashier or someone who cut her off in and says, "This black bitch...," when the color of the person's skin has nothing to do with the story.

[RaisingThemLeft]

I say black. I've never known a black person who referred to themselves as AA. I've also never known a black person who was offended by being referred to as "black". So that is what I go with.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I will add that when dh and I were in Puerto Rico, when mil would be looking for us and describing us, she'd say (in Spanish), "His wife is a thin Anglo." I've never even thought of myself as Anglo, but it certainly didn't bother me to be referred to that way.

[SarahFae]

I don't use African American for defining black people, because I know black people who aren't of African descent, and I know white people who do come from African descent.

[MadHatter]

I see nothing wrong with using a person's color to help identify him. I actually think it gets ridiculous when people skirt around doing so in order to be PC. If there is a group of five men, and one is black, and you're trying to point him out to someone, why wouldn't you use his color?.

We're not talking about that of course. We are talking about people that will say "this black lady gave me candy today" but had the woman be white they would just say "that lady gave me candy today"- not "that white lady."

[_Gypsy_]

We're not talking about that of course. We are talking about people that will say "this black lady gave me candy today" but had the woman be white they would just say "that lady gave me candy today"- not "that white lady."

Exactly.

When telling a story about a "lady down the street", her color is completely irrelevant.

I'm trying to raise my children to be "color blind", so referring to someone as black when there are other perfectly appropriate descriptors (like a red shirt) is inappropriate.

[JudyJudyJudy]

We're not talking about that of course. We are talking about people that will say "this black lady gave me candy today" but had the woman be white they would just say "that lady gave me candy today"- not "that white lady."
Others of you are saying that, but Gypsy is saying that the skin color shouldn't be used; use only other descriptors:


Exactly.

When telling a story about a "lady down the street", her color is completely irrelevant.

I'm trying to raise my children to be "color blind", so referring to someone as black when there are other perfectly appropriate descriptors (like a red shirt) is inappropriate.

I think this is being overly PC and is even more likely to keep a child from being "color-blind." Tiptoeing around someone's most obvious descriptor sends a bad message.

[_Gypsy_]

I don't tip-toe.

I just make it a non issue.

My children are very accepting of all people.

[JudyJudyJudy]

My child is also very accepting of people of various races. He has cousins who are white, black, Hispanic, Hawaiian, etc., so it would be pretty shitty if he were not. Regardless, we use color when we're trying to describe people.

[Michele]

That is the thing though, they weren't. Even when they were slaves they kept their traditions and taught their children. Even with the worse environment for slaves (at least in our country) they passed down who they were.

I honestly feel bad for the people who were slaves because they didn't let it hold them back in their own minds. They stayed strong. They escaped and started families in Canada and in free states. It is a disservice, IMO, to those people with what has gone on after they were freed.

ETA: I don't mean to sound like that slaves should suck up what happened and move on either. It should be acknowledged because it was horrible. It should be talked about so it won't happen again. Basically, what I was trying to say is that it seems the generations now are more focus on the past than they are on the future and the present. I wasn't a huge Obama supporter when he first came onto the scene, but I did love how he embodied forward thinking.

Stillme, you can't possibly be that daft. How do you pass on your "traditions" when you are A. in a foreign land as a captive, B. have your children sold or taken away from you often at a very early age, C. risk the massa's lash or worse for teaching your children anything other than to obey, and D. after one generation of being in your captive country you have no connection at all to the land from which your ancestor's came as a result.

The "African-American culture that you are talking about is a SLAVE culture--created and sanctified by massa and his whip right down to praising Jesus. Do not forget that.

Having said that, I agree with you about living in the past. We live in a post Civil Rights Movement world--it is time for some people to step up and own their mess and clean it up-assuming that the various and assorted forms of institutionalized racism continue to deconstruct.

[MadHatter]

I agree Michele, they sadly didn't keep their African culture, they constructed their own culture.

Another pet peeve of mine is when people post about odd baby names that are stereotypical black names. I guess they think they should name their babies some Anglo name, or pick a random African country and use a name from there?

[Sadalsuud]

That is the thing though, they weren't. Even when they were slaves they kept their traditions and taught their children. Even with the worse environment for slaves (at least in our country) they passed down who they were.

Many slaves were prohibited from outright practice of their traditions and most were even prohibited from speaking their native languages. If they kept their traditions and languages, they did so in secrecy.

ETA: Or what Michele said. I didn't read all of the responses before I posted.

[Michele]

I agree Michele, they sadly didn't keep their African culture, they constructed their own culture.

Another pet peeve of mine is when people post about odd baby names that are stereotypical black names. I guess they think they should name their babies some Anglo name, or pick a random African country and use a name from there?

Actually, the entire practice of "Africanizing" baby names in the black community is ultimately destructive. I find it ironic and sad that in an attempt to express a black culture through variation of names, people are actually setting up their children to fail in the dominant, mainstream culture. There was a study not long ago about names and job applications. Individuals with "ethic" names, including stereotypically "black" names, submitted resumes for employment. Those individuals with the "ethnic" names had qualifications that surpassed the resumes of individuals with "standard" names and spellings of those names. The vast majority of the time the individuals with the standard names were considered for employment even though they were less qualified for the job than those individuals with ethnic names. This practice is certainly not fair, but it is what it is and our culture has slowly been dealing with this problem for years. In order to normalize an ethnicity in any society you need to be able to infiltrate the dominant culture and succeed and surpass which means you first need access. This is exactly why programs like affirmative action exist. When we see more "ethnic" names in positions of power, respect, and authority the biases and stereotypes associated with those names eventually erode and crumble. (At least, ideally)

FWIW, my girls are both of Hispanic & Black heritage and their names are Sianna (Celtic in origin) and Safia (Hindi word for friend). Their names are unique. I like that their names deviate from the norm a bit.

[hidesome]

For most wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum, all human beings are either black or translucent. It is an odd distinction.

[MadHatter]

Actually, the entire practice of "Africanizing" baby names in the black community is ultimately destructive. I find it ironic and sad that in an attempt to express a black culture through variation of names, people are actually setting up their children to fail in the dominant, mainstream culture. There was a study not long ago about names and job applications. Individuals with "ethic" names, including stereotypically "black" names, submitted resumes for employment. Those individuals with the "ethnic" names had qualifications that surpassed the resumes of individuals with "standard" names and spellings of those names. The vast majority of the time the individuals with the standard names were considered for employment even though they were less qualified for the job than those individuals with ethnic names. This practice is certainly not fair, but it is what it is and our culture has slowly been dealing with this problem for years. In order to normalize an ethnicity in any society you need to be able to infiltrate the dominant culture and succeed and surpass which means you first need access. This is exactly why programs like affirmative action exist. When we see more "ethnic" names in positions of power, respect, and authority the biases and stereotypes associated with those names eventually erode and crumble. (At least, ideally)

FWIW, my girls are both of Hispanic & Black heritage and their names are Sianna (Celtic in origin) and Safia (Hindi word for friend). Their names are unique. I like that their names deviate from the norm a bit.


It is destructive b/c there are racist people. I don't think those people should change their practices just b/c some racist idiot out there might look down on it. But it is a gamble you have to take.

Between first and middle my kids have Arabic, Nigerian, Anglo, Hebrew, Greek, Spanish, Catholic saint, etc in there.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Actually, the entire practice of "Africanizing" baby names in the black community is ultimately destructive. I find it ironic and sad that in an attempt to express a black culture through variation of names, people are actually setting up their children to fail in the dominant, mainstream culture. There was a study not long ago about names and job applications. Individuals with "ethic" names, including stereotypically "black" names, submitted resumes for employment. Those individuals with the "ethnic" names had qualifications that surpassed the resumes of individuals with "standard" names and spellings of those names. The vast majority of the time the individuals with the standard names were considered for employment even though they were less qualified for the job than those individuals with ethnic names. This practice is certainly not fair, but it is what it is and our culture has slowly been dealing with this problem for years. In order to normalize an ethnicity in any society you need to be able to infiltrate the dominant culture and succeed and surpass which means you first need access. This is exactly why programs like affirmative action exist. When we see more "ethnic" names in positions of power, respect, and authority the biases and stereotypes associated with those names eventually erode and crumble. (At least, ideally)

A friend of mine worked for a company, and she said that those in charge of hiring would toss out very "black-sounding" names as well as "white trash–sounding" names. They didn't do that for other ethnicities.

Jacob's first, middle, and last names are Hebrew, Latin, and Spanish (Basque) in origin.

[MrsKitty]

My parents told me I shouldn't tell people I am queer because I won't ever get a job working with children.

Seems to me like I don't want to work for anyone who thinks that gay people are child molesters. Problem is theirs, not mine.

[still_me]

Stillme, you can't possibly be that daft. How do you pass on your "traditions" when you are A. in a foreign land as a captive, B. have your children sold or taken away from you often at a very early age, C. risk the massa's lash or worse for teaching your children anything other than to obey, and D. after one generation of being in your captive country you have no connection at all to the land from which your ancestor's came as a result.

The "African-American culture that you are talking about is a SLAVE culture--created and sanctified by massa and his whip right down to praising Jesus. Do not forget that.

Having said that, I agree with you about living in the past. We live in a post Civil Rights Movement world--it is time for some people to step up and own their mess and clean it up-assuming that the various and assorted forms of institutionalized racism continue to deconstruct.

I'm not being daft on purpose. ;) Traditions were smashed. Ways of life changed more than anyone of us have ever had to go through. They still were able to keep things with traditions and roots though. Yes, in slavery they were treated like scum, but the strength of slaves is inspiring. They made songs to teach each other and to remind each other. Even if a child wasn't theirs, but was around, they passed down what they could. Daily chores were incorporated with secret meanings of things from the past. So, yes it is a "slave culture" but it was based on traditions that they clung to. I live in what once was a very active underground railroad area. People are very active in teaching the history of this area and the one thing I have always felt from a young age, is that the slaves clung to any scrap of what they once were and knew in order to keep unity and strength alive.

[still_me]

If you were to correct her, what would you ask her to say instead?


This is the point I wanted to discuss further. Most people I know personally IRL consider "African American" to mean "black" in what they perceive to be more politically correct. But Dave Matthews and Charlize Theron aren't black. That's why I find the term to be misleading.

I'd like to hear their perspective on this.


I've heard Dave Matthews say that he is "South African"