So, what makes your faith strong?

[Nipple_nectar]

My five year old should really know more about GOD but I find myself stopping, in the midst of a parable that was passed down to me and passed down for dozens of generations, just not really feeling like it is even believable.

Do you ever find yourself in total doubt of everything you used to believe in or just blindly followed as a child?

In these days of such troubling times, you whom still have faith, how do you find the strength to keep getting up and doing it all over again?

And lastly for those who have found themselves at the bottom of the barrel, do tell me how you mustered the strength to gather yourself and claw your way out?

I'm kind of stuck, and could really use some whimsy, some wisdom or perhaps some mystical phrase that really puts the sparkle back on a person's smile, can you help me?

[Still_Tbog]

I try to surround myself with believers when I get like that. I found an excellent church, and we have weekly life groups that meet and help keep my head on straight. I open the Bible daily...even if it just to read one or two lines. If there is a certain thing eating at me, I look up verses pertaining to that. And most importantly, I keep thanking God EVERY day, even if I feel like I have nothing to be thankful for.

[Indigo]

I did question all of that, starting around 14 and stopped calling myself Christian after a lot of searching and truth seeking I found it just not to be truth for me. I have no doubt in my mind that my spirituality is correct and no guilt. All of what I was taught just did not make sense, and I can't change that and wouldn't want to. For me it has become more about personal responsibility and and being connected with the divine energy that is within all of us. Presence in the moment, true presence in the now is a big way to get connected. Stop all thought and focus only on what this present moment is, not what you will be doing later, what it will get you, what happened early or that awful story on the news, but your present moment. What do you see, hear, how does it feel, Etc. When you slow down and allow a space for it the consciousness can shift to away from the ego to the divine.

[still_me]

My five year old should really know more about GOD but I find myself stopping, in the midst of a parable that was passed down to me and passed down for dozens of generations, just not really feeling like it is even believable.

Your questions should not influence your child. Read them the story. Let them ask questions. If you don't have an answer pray about it together and learn about it. Let them come to their own conclusions. Your job is to live a life that is good. Let them see that. Let them hear the parables and read the stories and see why Jesus said what he was saying. Look at the community that was then and draw similarities with your kids.





Do you ever find yourself in total doubt of everything you used to believe in or just blindly followed as a child?


Not in total doubt, but when I do question and search I read and study until I am satisfied. I ask questions to those who know the bible better than I do and we bounce ideas off of each other. I pray first and foremost about it though. Sometimes prayer is all I need to do and letting go of analyzing every.little.thing.


In these days of such troubling times, you whom still have faith, how do you find the strength to keep getting up and doing it all over again?


One foot in front of their other. My faith doesn't depend on the economy. Whether I am poor or rich, I still have the same God and the same basic values that I've followed. My faith doesn't depend on how easy my life is at that point, or how hard it is. My faith doesn't depend on others. It is a personal bond that I have with God. Do I pray more during these times? Yep. Should I? Nope. I should be praying equal amounts of time during the good and the bad. The older I get though the more I realize when I put my eyes on material things and empty ideas, the more stressed I get.

And lastly for those who have found themselves at the bottom of the barrel, do tell me how you mustered the strength to gather yourself and claw your way out?

You want me to be completely honest? Everything you've written is from a "me" or an "I" stance. Stop trying to do it on your own. Pray. Have faith. It isn't blind obedience. This opinion might not be what some want to read, but I'll still state it. ;) Humans analyze entirely too much. We need to see proof. We want to feel proof. We want to hear it with our own ears. The thing is, if we are so busy with analyzing, we'll never hear it, feel it, or see it. If we just slow down and listen... No matter what your faith is or how you worship, look around you. See the sun break through the clouds as you are driving and see how it fills the area. Look at a flower and think of how beautiful each crevice is. Look around and listen. Basics are needed to survive and live a life that is satisfactory. We all chase something that is fleeting in some way in our life.

Sayings that help me are these: And this too shall pass. (google it, read the Solomon version...not Abe's)

Matthew 6:25-34 (New International Version)

Do Not Worry
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[a]?

28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.


And finally, we don't have to be perfect. We have to try to do our best. That is what God asks of us. Just to try. We always want to make God out to be this hard to please person. He isn't. It is a well known thing that people try to sabotage their lives so they won't disappoint others or themselves. How many times do we do this in order to not look at ourselves closely? If we would just forgive ourselves and go a little easier on ourselves we'd see that this journey on earth isn't as demanding as we make it.

You want to know my motto(s) that I live by?

"We are not human beings on a spiritual journey. We are spiritual beings on a human journey." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

"That Which Does Not Destroy Us Makes Us Strong "
(Author Unknown)

So, this last one is a common one, but when you strip it down it is true. We are much more reslient and stronger than we'd like to believe. It is much easier to take the poor me route. It is familiar. It has no surprises because we choose what happens then.

I have not hidden how my childhood was. I speak openly about it. Sometimes it is with bitterness and sometimes it is with peace. I had to choose at a very young age, whether I should drown in darkness and let negativity win or let go and believe. I am so very glad, that I chose the path that I did. It isn't always easy, but I don't think I'd have respect for my life if it was.


Sorry it is so long winded. It is early and DH is in charge of the boys. You are always more than welcome to PM me so we can bounce ideas off of each other. I am always wanting to see how other people think and question because more often than not, I either have been there or one day end up there.

[Still_Tbog]

Wow still_me--I may look you up for spiritual camaraderie some day. Well said.

[pawprint]

I don't want to be combative here, but I do think it's our job to teach our children to question. Blind faith, as a rule, can be dangerous. (I don't mean in a religious sense, I mean in general.)

I grew up in a Lutheran church and felt exactly the same way as you Mrs. R. THat it was more like a literature class than something I really believed. Now I am something of an apathetic agnostic. Don't know, don't care.

I wish I did believe sometimes. But I can't just make myself believe though.

It's not lonely or sad to not believe. I don't feel unguided, or unloved or anything bad. I think I would feel a lack of community if I didn't have a great UU church though.

[Nipple_nectar]

So, Paw, what do you base your strength on? What do you draw from, if you cannot draw from personal faith?

This is where I am at, I am feeling empty at the moment and feeling like I have nothing to draw from..

[pawprint]

My grandpa, who I loved dearly died in 2003 just after ds2 was born. I was devastated. A few months later I got a copy of his memoirs that he had started as part of my younger cousin's class project on genealogy and then he'd decided to really do a bang up job of it and add pictures and stories and recipes and such. He wasn't ever really a church guy and when I was paging through his the papers there was a question that was roughly "What are your religious beliefs?" He had written "My believe has always been in my self; in strength, in determination, in persistence, and the good that resides in all men." At the time I was really upset about that. I saw it as cocky and was.... I don't know... scared for his soul. After my own spiritual journey landing at agnostic- I have a deep respect for that answer now.

One of the UU principles is a belief in the inherent worth and dignity of every person. It's the first principle and the one that means the most to me. There is so much good in the world. So much value in each person. Just look at bfdc. I couldn't list the millions of things that I've learned form these people, the experiences I've shared with them. And the vast majority of them, I've never even met.

There are sad, evil parts of the world. But I do not think they are the majority. I am strong because I am human. I am good because it is right. I love unconditionally, I laugh as much as I can. I make small gestures of kindness to the world around me every single day. In the school parking lot I let someone go ahead of me every day. A small thing, but a kindness nonetheless. As your sig says- you get what you give.

I am still bitchy, shoot off at the mouth, lose my temper and stray from the path of goodness. ;) That's human too. But for the most part, I do my best to be a good citizen of the planet.

In short I suppose, I draw strength from all that is good in the world- from the human experience.

[still_me]

Wow still_me--I may look you up for spiritual camaraderie some day. Well said.


Thanks, Still_Tbog. You are more than welcome to pm me anytime. I enjoy talking about spirituality because it always has a good outcome, KWIM? I always walk away more positive and with even more answers. lol


Paw, who is this directed towards?

I don't want to be combative here, but I do think it's our job to teach our children to question. Blind faith, as a rule, can be dangerous. (I don't mean in a religious sense, I mean in general.)

[Tweet]

I did question all of that, starting around 14 and stopped calling myself Christian after a lot of searching and truth seeking I found it just not to be truth for me. I have no doubt in my mind that my spirituality is correct and no guilt. All of what I was taught just did not make sense, and I can't change that and wouldn't want to. For me it has become more about personal responsibility and and being connected with the divine energy that is within all of us. Presence in the moment, true presence in the now is a big way to get connected. Stop all thought and focus only on what this present moment is, not what you will be doing later, what it will get you, what happened early or that awful story on the news, but your present moment. What do you see, hear, how does it feel, Etc. When you slow down and allow a space for it the consciousness can shift to away from the ego to the divine.

Same here with the questioning only this was in the last few years,for me. I have no guilt and no worries and actually feel better now that I DON'T have to keep questioning and trying to make myself believe things that well, I just don't believe. It really was a HUGE relief. Now, I'm agnostic so I really don't know one way or the other. For me, that is ok.

I can say that I'm completely honest with my children. So far, only dd1 has asked questions. I've been honest and told her what I don't believe and told her the things that I'm unsure of. I've also told her about other beliefs. She (they) is completely free to go on their own path (or not).

[Tweet]

So, Paw, what do you base your strength on? What do you draw from, if you cannot draw from personal faith?

This is where I am at, I am feeling empty at the moment and feeling like I have nothing to draw from..

I ,like Paw, also draw from my own strengths as well as the strength from the goodness of human beings. I still try to have faith that people are basically good and that there IS goodness in this world still. That's also what I'd like to see my children focus on. If a higher power of some sort leads them to that, great. If not,though, I'd still like for them to seek out the good in the world and focus on that trait in themselves.

[rockmom]

I'm with Paw. I see so much good around me, even when times are hard. I have to choose which I am going to be a part of. I can choose to add to the bad, the sad, and depressing. Or I can choose to spread a little good around. Sometimes I slip up and sow unhappiness. But I know that it is still my choice and that I can start working on making the world a better place again.

[Bohemian]

My faith is something so deeply instilled in me that I could not shake it even when I've wanted to. I did not grow up in a religious household and my parents never taught me anything about religion. I began to meet friends of various faiths in my mid teens and sought out Christianity on my own. It was a short lived thing and not something I returned to until my mid 20's.

It's really hard to explain but no matter where I've been in my life, no matter the doubts that have come and gone and through times when I've felt absolutely nothing spiritually while trying to seek a connection to God, when I've done my own thing without a thought to God, and even when I've been angry and just wanted to have nothing to do with religion, I've felt in my deepest core that what I know as truth IS truth and nothing can change that. There have been times that I'd wished I'd never ever heard of God because I was pissed because I couldn't shake my beliefs when I wanted to.

I cannot explain it because it's a mystery to me as well. I resonate with people that say no matter how hard they try or what they do they cannot force themselves into a spiritual belief because for me, no matter what I do or how hard I try, I cannot force my belief away. I had some spiritual experience that have left me changed. I've felt things that in my times of deepest doubt and disconnect and I can simply remember those feelings and experiences and I know that it's more that just how I'm feeling at any given moment.

Still Me, excellent post. It was truly a pleasure to read and full of wisdom. :)

[pawprint]

Paw, who is this directed towards?

I don't want to be combative here, but I do think it's our job to teach our children to question. Blind faith, as a rule, can be dangerous. (I don't mean in a religious sense, I mean in general.)

You. :) I feel like a trespasser in a thread about faith, so I don't mean to be combative. But you said Mrs. R's questions shouldn't influence her children and I disagree with that. It is human nature to question, I think. I'm a raving liberal but I teach my children to question my beliefs in that department. Make me plead my case and make my points. I think it's healthier to make up your own mind (and more likely to 'stick') then to have someone else tell you what is true.

AS far as the danger part what I mean is- nothing is certain. Suppose you teach your child that teachers are there to help you and that you should always do what they tell you to do. Sounds logical. But some teachers anuse their power, seduce young kids- that sort of thing. I don't want my children blindly trusting anyone or anything. Not even me.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I'll just echo Rockmom, Paw, and Indigo. Also, like Paw said, I absolutely believe that it's important to teach our kids to question.

[hidesome]

It is an interesting question. Frankly, I haven't followed at all the faith of my parents or other relatives. I have always staunchly treated matters of religion as private and personal. That fact means that my faith is just that, mine. It is rarely shaken - but occasionally stirred.

[still_me]

You. :) I feel like a trespasser in a thread about faith, so I don't mean to be combative. But you said Mrs. R's questions shouldn't influence her children and I disagree with that. It is human nature to question, I think. I'm a raving liberal but I teach my children to question my beliefs in that department. Make me plead my case and make my points. I think it's healthier to make up your own mind (and more likely to 'stick') then to have someone else tell you what is true.

AS far as the danger part what I mean is- nothing is certain. Suppose you teach your child that teachers are there to help you and that you should always do what they tell you to do. Sounds logical. But some teachers anuse their power, seduce young kids- that sort of thing. I don't want my children blindly trusting anyone or anything. Not even me.

Let me address the bold part first. I don't think that you are being combative at all.

Second of all. No where did I state that her kids shouldn't question. In fact I said this:

Let them ask questions. If you don't have an answer pray about it together and learn about it. Let them come to their own conclusions.

I can see where you are coming from Paw. I didn't mean it in that way at all though. I even said later on

My faith doesn't depend on others. It is a personal bond that I have with God.

Pray. Have faith. It isn't blind obedience.

We encourage our boys to question everything that they possibly can. We both firmly believe that it is vital for growth in any area of their lives. Not letting my questions influence my child is my job though. IMO, just because I don't believe something or because I am questioning something at a certain point in my life, doesn't give me permission to place that doubt or disbelief in my child. I am talking about anything here, just not God. I would hate to find out that my doubt or disbelief in someway prohibited my child from exploring that area on their own. We try our best to present whatever topic is up for discussion and not influence the kids in their decision. Now, take into mind that these conversations aren't deep things (our oldest will be 5) but I do let him talk and question and I keep my opinions as unbiased as possible.

[JudyJudyJudy]

We encourage our boys to question everything that they possibly can. We both firmly believe that it is vital for growth in any area of their lives. Not letting my questions influence my child is my job though. IMO, just because I don't believe something or because I am questioning something at a certain point in my life, doesn't give me permission to place that doubt or disbelief in my child. I am talking about anything here, just not God. I would hate to find out that my doubt or disbelief in someway prohibited my child from exploring that area on their own. We try our best to present whatever topic is up for discussion and not influence the kids in their decision. Now, take into mind that these conversations aren't deep things (our oldest will be 5) but I do let him talk and question and I keep my opinions as unbiased as possible.
I don't think I'm following you here. If it's not okay to allow your child to know when you're questioning something, why is it okay for you to allow your child to know your beliefs in the first place? How would your questioning something prohibit your child from exploring that area? I suspect expressing your beliefs with no questioning would be far more likely to prohibit your child from exploring other areas.

[alejorge]

I am not a religious person anymore. I used to go to church every sunday and then when we moved I just never went back to church.

We had some people from a baptist church knock on our door yesterday inviting us to join their church and they talked with me a little bit. They asked me to pray with them adn I just couldn't bring myself to pray out loud with them.

I wish I could find religion again I just don't know where to begin and where to find a church that I would feel comfortable at.

I really need to try finding reliogion fo r me adn my family. especialy my kids. I think it would help us a lot.

[pawprint]

Still me: Here woman! You said this! Lol.

Your questions should not influence your child.

[madelsmama]

Well, first off, parables are stories that Jesus told to illustrate a lesson, more like analogies. So, if they seem unlikely stories, that's okay; they may or may not be "real" stories. But the point of the story is to teach a lesson, which is the important part to impress upon your child when your discussing the parable. Focus on what the story is saying about who God is, and try not to get too bogged down in the details.

I think as one grows and matures, there will be many things that s/he must question, including one's faith. As an adult, there are certain aspects of my faith that I struggle with, and that's okay. God knows all about it b/c I speak openly about it in prayer. And at the end of the day, I know in my core that there is a God who cares deeply for me, and I don't have to have everything "figured out" to know that.

A couple of scriptures that I keep close to my heart are Mark 9:14-29 and Isaiah 41:13. The Mark passage has the verse, "I do believe: Help me overcome my unbelief!"

I ran across this blog entry in googling for the scripture: http://emergenthouston.blogspot.com/2006/05/i-do-believe-help-me-overcome-my.html

We have a few books written for children that tell Bible stories. At the end of the story there are a few questions that help the parent direct the child a bit (something like that may help you share more about God with your daughter).

[tata]

I pray. I read spiritual texts other than the Bible. I discuss belief systems with people I trust. I'm mostly like hidesome, though. My folks didn't force, encourage or even speak much about religion, but they also didn't dissuade me from my own pursuits. I find my beliefs to be deeply personal and know that when I feel distant from that strength, it's likely my own fault for failing to hold my end of the relationship with God (by way of not praying, reading or discussing, etc.).

I feel very strongly that - at least for myself - prayer is the most powerful in renewing my connection with God. I give thanks for the health and happinesses we have, even when I'm sickly with allergies and having a shit-foul day. Meditation is also a great way for me to stay connected. I've also experienced spiritual transcendence while dancing.

I don't feel that my faith has been particularly shaky lately, but I have taken notice that my relationship with God has grown distant. I must make time to pray.

I feel it's important to add that I did experience several years of shaky faith. I questioned a lot of things that Christianity taught me through the church and the Bible. I don't quite remember when or even how it happened, but I realized that - more than through any person and more than through any book - God lives in my gut. I gave myself permission to dismiss the contradictions and formulate beliefs that rang truest to my own ears. It has gained me a lot of doubt among my fellow man, but it also gained me a stronger faith and a better relationship with God. I can live with that :)

[EvilAmy]

Faith is such a personal exprience that it falls under better to experience it for oneself than take another word for it. And that there will be times you question faith but that is a part of human nature that we are to overcome and grow upon. Had I not questioned and sought out answers I would not have my personal growth. And like anything else, growth is a personal matter as well. For everyone it is a different path.

My DH is LDS but not-active, I'm pursuing Hinduism (my extended side of the family ranges from Agnostic,Charasmatic, Catholic, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist and a couple others) DS tends to fall under Agnostic, DD was just baptised into the LDS church this weekend. The younger two are too young to care yet. I've been willing to take them (the kids) to whatever church they wished to experience. I've taken them to LDS, Baptist, the Catholic church was too far to travel too on a routine basis. We've never forced our beliefs on our kids, we've told them that what faith they choose to subscribe to was their desicion alone. When DD turned eight however we resisted letting her get baptisied into the Church. We felt that at that age she could not comprehend the magnitude of her descicion. We did receive pressure from outside but we stood our ground on the matter. Too many times we had eight year old have no clue as to why they were being baptisied. Their responses were often; "I'm eight, I'm supposed too" "My Mom and Dad said I had too" "Everybody my age is doing it." Seeing as she was 11 she had to have missionary visits to recieve her lessons. I was rather proud of her in her descision, she listened and absorbed, she had a great understanding of what she was being taught. When she didn't understand she questioned. I'll admit that there was a couple of sticky moments for me (it was very minor considering that some people speaking really don't know us only DD), but to see my DD cry because she was so very happy after her baptism was worth it. The Confirmation/Blessing that DD received from a good friend of ours was beautiful, it's not often you hear an old farmer break up in tears while praying over someone.

[still_me]

Still me: Here woman! You said this! Lol.


lol.



For some reason I am still struggling to figure out how to word it better....


I said my questions shouldn't influence them because my questions are usually more complex than a 5yr old would ask. Well, I'd like to think I'm more complex than a 5 yr old. ;) If I have questions when they are older about a subject and they are able to understand it and have a conversation about it, then fine. But really I much rather them learn about something and then come to me with their questions and then us go from there. Our influence is so strong that I don't want to sway them one way or another.

Does that make more sense? (This is said with honestly no snark)

[still_me]

I don't think I'm following you here. If it's not okay to allow your child to know when you're questioning something, why is it okay for you to allow your child to know your beliefs in the first place? How would your questioning something prohibit your child from exploring that area? I suspect expressing your beliefs with no questioning would be far more likely to prohibit your child from exploring other areas.


I have no problem with sharing my questioning with our kids as they are older. Right now though, DS1 wouldn't get my questions. That is the difference between me and Mrs.R. I also think that voicing questions and voicing disbelief or doubt are two totally different things. As I said before I try to stay as unbiased as much as possible when DS1 asks questions (about anything) because I want him to come to his own conclusions. He's done pretty well for a 5yr old so far.

Again, voicing a question is fine. Voicing doubt or disbelief with that question is a shady area for me. Shady as unclear, not shifty.


I agree with you and this question is what made me realize I have a problem with sharing doubts or disbelief more than I do questions.

[JudyJudyJudy]

You say that you think it's wrong to share disbelief? Well, what about belief? Do you share it? Why is it okay to share belief but not disbelief?

[steelady]

So, Paw, what do you base your strength on? What do you draw from, if you cannot draw from personal faith?

This is where I am at, I am feeling empty at the moment and feeling like I have nothing to draw from..


Friends, family support. Knowing that others have btdt and survived.

I look to history. I see what women (and men) have experienced and take comfort in knowing that I, too, can make it.

Not being alone-having people look and "see" me.

And, ultimately, I base my strength on the fact that I HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE but to keep moving, keep putting one foot in front of the other.

[steelady]

You say that you think it's wrong to share disbelief? Well, what about belief? Do you share it? Why is it okay to share belief but not disbelief?


A very interesting question.

[steelady]

<snip>
Do you ever find yourself in total doubt of everything you used to believe in or just blindly followed as a child?



Yes. I started doubting in high school, searched throughout college and was slapped upside the head when ds was diagnosed. Because of everything, I finally realized I did not believe, and I felt calmer. Like I was trying to push something onto myself that didn't fit. When I acknowledged my feelings, my thoughts, it fit, for lack of a better way of putting it. For me, the doubting led to non-belief and for me, it works.



In these days of such troubling times, you whom still have faith, how do you find the strength to keep getting up and doing it all over again?



Those that I know (mostly online) take strength and comfort in the idea (fact for them) that they cannot know God's mind. They place their trust in God and release their worries to Him (if I understand correctly).



And lastly for those who have found themselves at the bottom of the barrel, do tell me how you mustered the strength to gather yourself and claw your way out?

I don't understand the question. What do you mean by "bottom of the barrel"? I've been there in multiple contexts and want to answer appropriately. The one common thing in all of my climbing out of all of the barrels was an acceptance and forgiveness of myself. Acknowledging my mistakes, forgiving myself for them, and building upon the lessons learned.



I'm kind of stuck, and could really use some whimsy, some wisdom or perhaps some mystical phrase that really puts the sparkle back on a person's smile, can you help me?

Here are my phrases:

1. That that does not kill us, makes us stronger (spoken in a fake southern accent ala Olympia Dukakis from Steel Magnolia).

2. Fake it till you make it.

3. The serenity prayer-Give me the Courage to change what I can, the strength to accept what I cannot and the wisdom to tell the difference.

4. This, too, shall pass

Good luck on your journey.

[tata]

I finally realized I did not believe, and I felt calmer. Like I was trying to push something onto myself that didn't fit. When I acknowledged my feelings, my thoughts, it fit, for lack of a better way of putting it. For me, the doubting led to non-belief and for me, it works.
Your coming into non-belief sounds a lot like my coming into belief. Dismissing others' demands that I had to believe X, Y and Z to be "righteous" was the best thing I could have done for my relationship with God. I just thought it interesting that we did similar things and ended up in different "places."

And I like your phrases. #2 and #3 are really hard, though (for me).

[steelady]

But they make a great mantra and are easier for me to get through than counting to 10.

[Peeka2]

I believe in God. I believe in having faith in God. Its the churches I have a problem with. I have gone to way to many churches where the members are judgemental and hypocritical. I hate it and will never join a church. I allow my kids to go to church and I believe the Bible is a guide. But I will always teach my children to have an open-mind and to question what others teach. Because unlike a lot of people I have met, I do not believe that God meant for the Bible to be followed to the letter. Everyone has a different view on what each passage means to THEM and I teach my children to find their own meanings in the words and stories they will read/ or read to.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Here are my phrases:

1. That that does not kill us, makes us stronger (spoken in a fake southern accent ala Olympia Dukakis from Steel Magnolia).

Since I know too many people for whom this isn't true (they've had nervous breakdowns, etc.), I don't use this one.

[steelady]

Since I know too many people for whom this isn't true (they've had nervous breakdowns, etc.), I don't use this one.


I agree with you, but it always makes me laugh thinking of Olympia Dukakis saying that.

I love Steel Magnolias, but her accent was so damn phony and contrived (to me) that it's funny.

[still_me]

You say that you think it's wrong to share disbelief? Well, what about belief? Do you share it? Why is it okay to share belief but not disbelief?


I don't know how to answer these questions anymore to be completely honest. I never stated that I thought questioning was wrong, yet that route was taken. I never said it is "wrong" to share disbelief, yet again, it is taken like that. I am answering these questions from a faith based point of view, (which was how the op wanted them answered). I feel like what I am saying is being put in a right or wrong box and that isn't how I live, nor is it how I want to come across.


I do share my beliefs. I do share them because it is part of our lives. Do I force it on them? Not at all. Do I think those who don't believe and share that with their kids are wrong too? Not at all. Do I have a problem with non believers and even believers when they push (and don't allow other mind sets)? Yep.


ETA: Steel, two of your motto(s) or mantras are the same as mine. I live by "And this too shall pass" and What doesn't kill us only makes us stronger.

[steelady]

I don't know how to answer these questions anymore to be completely honest. I never stated that I thought questioning was wrong, yet that route was taken. I never said it is "wrong" to share disbelief, yet again, it is taken like that. I am answering these questions from a faith based point of view, (which was how the op wanted them answered). I feel like what I am saying is being put in a right or wrong box and that isn't how I live, nor is it how I want to come across.


I do share my beliefs. I do share them because it is part of our lives. Do I force it on them? Not at all. Do I think those who don't believe and share that with their kids are wrong too? Not at all. Do I have a problem with non believers and even believers when they push (and don't allow other mind sets)? Yep.


ETA: Steel, two of your motto(s) or mantras are the same as mine. I live by "And this too shall pass" and What doesn't kill us only makes us stronger.

I know I'm not judging your responses, just asking questions. Just as you have a different perspective (faith based) many of us also have a different perspective. We view your words through our filters.

In that vein, I felt that was an interesting question not because it was implying anything about your, but because it is a way I had never heard it expressed. I can't infer, from my filter and your words, if you do mean you would share your disbelief or whatever. I, personally and I'm pretty sure Judy as well-though I wouldn't presume to speak for her-aren't judging, but questioning.

Which is the problem with these discussions; just as you feel judged, I don't feel as if I can ask without being accused of judgment. Faith is personal, but to those of us who don't share that faith, it is like any other opinion/philosophy (for want of a better word) open for discussion and dissection.

[still_me]

I know I'm not judging your responses, just asking questions. Just as you have a different perspective (faith based) many of us also have a different perspective. We view your words through our filters.

In that vein, I felt that was an interesting question not because it was implying anything about your, but because it is a way I had never heard it expressed. I can't infer, from my filter and your words, if you do mean you would share your disbelief or whatever. I, personally and I'm pretty sure Judy as well-though I wouldn't presume to speak for her-aren't judging, but questioning.

Which is the problem with these discussions; just as you feel judged, I don't feel as if I can ask without being accused of judgment. Faith is personal, but to those of us who don't share that faith, it is like any other opinion/philosophy (for want of a better word) open for discussion and dissection.


Well, what a tail chasing talk this can become! lol Well, I don't want accuse anyone of judgment. That wouldn't get us very far would it? I'm sorry to make anyone feel that they can't ask questions. Sometimes I really hate this form of communication because I begin to over think what I am trying to say and what others have said.

It is hard to talk about religion as a faith based person because it is so personal and it is so hard to explain a feeling. Most of my experiences are emotional ones so that makes it equally hard to not want to protect, yet try to see that people aren't dissecting or discussing it in a negative light. To be honest, after seeing somethings go down here after talks about religion, I've been scared to open this thread after a new post because I don't know if someone is there to attack me. I should stop that because I come into some of this talks with a thick wall up.

[pawprint]

I know I'm not judging your responses, just asking questions. Just as you have a different perspective (faith based) many of us also have a different perspective. We view your words through our filters.

In that vein, I felt that was an interesting question not because it was implying anything about your, but because it is a way I had never heard it expressed. I can't infer, from my filter and your words, if you do mean you would share your disbelief or whatever. I, personally and I'm pretty sure Judy as well-though I wouldn't presume to speak for her-aren't judging, but questioning.

Which is the problem with these discussions; just as you feel judged, I don't feel as if I can ask without being accused of judgment. Faith is personal, but to those of us who don't share that faith, it is like any other opinion/philosophy (for want of a better word) open for discussion and dissection.

Yes, yes! ICAM!

[steelady]

Well, what a tail chasing talk this can become! lol Well, I don't want accuse anyone of judgment. That wouldn't get us very far would it? I'm sorry to make anyone feel that they can't ask questions. Sometimes I really hate this form of communication because I begin to over think what I am trying to say and what others have said.

It is hard to talk about religion as a faith based person because it is so personal and it is so hard to explain a feeling. Most of my experiences are emotional ones so that makes it equally hard to not want to protect, yet try to see that people aren't dissecting or discussing it in a negative light. To be honest, after seeing somethings go down here after talks about religion, I've been scared to open this thread after a new post because I don't know if someone is there to attack me. I should stop that because I come into some of this talks with a thick wall up.



Problem is there are people on here who do mean hurtful things (on all sides, from all backgrounds) and it is very easy to confuse posters. When one person asks "but what about..." right after someone says "well, that's stupid, you delusional bitch", it's very tough to keep things straight.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I agree with you, but it always makes me laugh thinking of Olympia Dukakis saying that.

I love Steel Magnolias, but her accent was so damn phony and contrived (to me) that it's funny.
You can imagine that if you noticed the phony accent, it really bugged me. "lol9" I despise most shows and movies that are set in the South because almost all of the actors suck at the accents. It's bad that even the accent of Julia Roberts, who is from the South, sucked in "Steel Magnolias"; she worked so hard at changing her accent when she started her career that she forgot how she was supposed to talk!

Thank goodness for Sissy Spacek.


I don't know how to answer these questions anymore to be completely honest. I never stated that I thought questioning was wrong, yet that route was taken. I never said it is "wrong" to share disbelief, yet again, it is taken like that.
It did come across that way:

"Not letting my questions influence my child is my job though. IMO, just because I don't believe something or because I am questioning something at a certain point in my life, doesn't give me permission to place that doubt or disbelief in my child. I am talking about anything here, just not God. I would hate to find out that my doubt or disbelief in someway prohibited my child from exploring that area on their own."


I am answering these questions from a faith based point of view, (which was how the op wanted them answered). I feel like what I am saying is being put in a right or wrong box and that isn't how I live, nor is it how I want to come across.
This is the type of thing I was talking about on the thread that MiMi started recently. When we try to have discussions here these days, people are so quick to react like this. It's a discussion; it's not meant to say you're a horrible person or anything like that. The goal is to try to understand your viewpoint, and, yes, to even make you evaluate your own viewpoint. I do think it's a worthy question to ask why you are comfortable sharing your beliefs but not your disbeliefs.

[still_me]

Problem is there are people on here who do mean hurtful things (on all sides, from all backgrounds) and it is very easy to confuse posters. When one person asks "but what about..." right after someone says "well, that's stupid, you delusional bitch", it's very tough to keep things straight.


LOL. So very true. *knock on wood* Maybe this conversation can continue civilly...

[hidesome]

Faith is such a personal exprience that it falls under better to experience it for oneself than take another word for it. And that there will be times you question faith but that is a part of human nature that we are to overcome and grow upon. Had I not questioned and sought out answers I would not have my personal growth. And like anything else, growth is a personal matter as well. For everyone it is a different path.

My DH is LDS but not-active, I'm pursuing Hinduism (my extended side of the family ranges from Agnostic,Charasmatic, Catholic, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist and a couple others) DS tends to fall under Agnostic, DD was just baptised into the LDS church this weekend. The younger two are too young to care yet. I've been willing to take them (the kids) to whatever church they wished to experience. I've taken them to LDS, Baptist, the Catholic church was too far to travel too on a routine basis. We've never forced our beliefs on our kids, we've told them that what faith they choose to subscribe to was their desicion alone. When DD turned eight however we resisted letting her get baptisied into the Church. We felt that at that age she could not comprehend the magnitude of her descicion. We did receive pressure from outside but we stood our ground on the matter. Too many times we had eight year old have no clue as to why they were being baptisied. Their responses were often; "I'm eight, I'm supposed too" "My Mom and Dad said I had too" "Everybody my age is doing it." Seeing as she was 11 she had to have missionary visits to recieve her lessons. I was rather proud of her in her descision, she listened and absorbed, she had a great understanding of what she was being taught. When she didn't understand she questioned. I'll admit that there was a couple of sticky moments for me (it was very minor considering that some people speaking really don't know us only DD), but to see my DD cry because she was so very happy after her baptism was worth it. The Confirmation/Blessing that DD received from a good friend of ours was beautiful, it's not often you hear an old farmer break up in tears while praying over someone.


What a beautiful story. Trust me, old farmers give the best blessings.

[Tweet]

It's been civil so far. No reason to think anyone is going to be inflammatory as of yet!

I actually have the same questions than Judy and Steel have. I look at it like this:It would likely even benefit your child(ren) (general you,not just yours,Still me) if they are aware of questioning or doubting. It's just been my experience that most every believer has had doubts and questions. I think it might help in the sense that it lets them know that it's normal and ok and to let them know what you ( again,general you) did or do to get through those times. Not that it's my business how anyone handles it in their own family. I just see the value in being extremely open about those things,probably because my own parents were so open about it.

I do have friends that think it's odd that I do admit to my children that when it comes to God and religion,I don't have the answer . I just don't know. There are some things that I know I *don't* personally believe and some things I just don't have an answer for.Then again, the same friends think it's odd that I plan on telling them I've done drugs and what the result of those choices were. Obviously these discussions will and have ( at least the religious one) be age appropriate and mostly when asked.

[still_me]

It's been civil so far. No reason to think anyone is going to be inflammatory as of yet!

I actually have the same questions than Judy and Steel have. I look at it like this:It would likely even benefit your child(ren) (general you,not just yours,Still me) if they are aware of questioning or doubting. It's just been my experience that most every believer has had doubts and questions. I think it might help in the sense that it lets them know that it's normal and ok and to let them know what you ( again,general you) did or do to get through those times. Not that it's my business how anyone handles it in their own family. I just see the value in being extremely open about those things,probably because my own parents were so open about it.

I do have friends that think it's odd that I do admit to my children that when it comes to God and religion,I don't have the answer . I just don't know. There are some things that I know I *don't* personally believe and some things I just don't have an answer for.Then again, the same friends think it's odd that I plan on telling them I've done drugs and what the result of those choices were. Obviously these discussions will and have ( at least the religious one) be age appropriate and mostly when asked.



Very true Tweet. I suppose I was looking at the mind set of when people push their disbelief, just like how extremists push their beliefs on their children. That is the mind set that I want to stay away from. I don't want to plant a seed of doubt in my kids mind, when usually I figure out how I feel by prayer and reading. They aren't at that point yet when they can do that themselves, so I am hesitant to say anything because they can't take it farther. Now, once the boys get older, I can talk to them about things, but for now I'll stick to reading the bible to them and us talking about things like the Ark.


I have some questions for non church goers, non-believers, or what ever category you fall into. What do you tell your children when they ask about God? Do you tell them how non believers are and how believers are? If they want to go to church or read the Bible, do you? If they don't believe or ask, do you feel it is because of how you believe? Just how I hope that my kids don't feel pressured to follow God because of us, do you feel that way about your child's choice in regards to God?

I'm not trying to catch anyone at a "HA!" moment in your lives. I'm just tossing somethings around in my mind.

[pawprint]

I have some questions for non church goers, non-believers, or what ever category you fall into.
I am a UU church-goer but a non-believer.

What do you tell your children when they ask about God?
Because I am a UU and not 'just an agnostic' my answer may deviate from the average non-believer. I tell them some people believe in god and some do not. Daddy does, mommy does not. Pop does, Granny does not... etc.

Do you tell them how non believers are and how believers are?
NOt sure what this means. I never noticed any constant characteristics in either group...
If they want to go to church or read the Bible, do you?
I have been reading them bedtime bible stories this week at DH's request. They go a to a church where all religions or lack thereof are given credence but if they wanted to go to a Christian church I would be okay with that. I may go once to check it out but I doubt I could go on a regular basis.
If they don't believe or ask, do you feel it is because of how you believe?
DS1 believes in God ds2 doesnt' care, so I guess it's not me. It's not really somethign that we talk about all that much.
Just how I hope that my kids don't feel pressured to follow God because of us, do you feel that way about your child's choice in regards to God? It honestly doesn't matter to me one way or another. I've said it before but I WISH I believed. It's muich harder to be good for goodness sake. ;)

ETa: As long as they don't become one of the Christians who give the rest of you a bad name- I'm good.
[/QUOTE]

[tata]

steel, I think you articulated something I've been struggling with about these types of discussions. I admit that I have been hesitant to participate for many of the same reasons that still_me pointed out. Before I left the last time, I realized that I read a lot of questions (regardless of who posted them) in the more "hot" threads with a snarky tone. One of the reasons I left and something I've tried vehemently to avoid since returning. I postulate that a part of this - at least where spiritual threads are concerned - is the real life shit I've gotten for my beliefs. But I digress.

When DD was just a little baby, our downstairs neighbor told us that his 7 or 8 year old son had discovered/realized that Santa wasn't real. The neighbor was totally distraught, since his son posed the question that "if Santa is make-believe, does that mean Jesus is, too?" I decided then and there (with xSO's support) that we wouldn't play "Santa" for DD. If nothing else, I wanted to always be honest with my kid.

The years passed, and the entirety of xSO's family did play Santa. xSO's step-dad even dressed up like him. Despite DD figuring it out that it was Papa (and almost spoiling it for her younger cousins!), she still believed in Santa. I never told her not to, just didn't actively participate in anything related to Santa.

Last Christmas, she decided he isn't real and insisted to me that she was going to persuade her neighborhood friend (who is younger) that he isn't real. I explained to her that it isn't right to tell other people what to believe and what not to believe, no matter how ridiculous it seems to us. We had a long talk about faith and various religions and I pointed out to her that there are a number of people who don't believe in God at all. I told her that there isn't anything wrong with any of these differences.

She then asked me what I believe.

I think it's normal for kids to inquire about their parent's beliefs. I recall asking my folks when I was a kid. I think the best thing we can do for our kids is to be honest about our beliefs or lack thereof.

[Nipple_nectar]

Thank you all, for your thoughtful replies. It has helped a bit, in my plight. I have been doing what I have been doing for so long, it has always felt right to me, until recently.

Without going into huge detail, a person I worked with, has gone out of their way to intentionally cause tremendous strife in my life. I have been struggling to decipher what it means for me and does it perhaps symbolize a need for change.

I try to always be the change that I desire in my life, for myself. Steel reminded me of the serenity prayer, it has always followed me closely, while making important life decisions.

"Fake it til you make it", may have to be the replacement though:)

It has been really hard to have the wisdom to figure out what is best for my family at this point. The obvious path is usually not the right path for me and I am abiding to that logic now, even though it feels very wrong to me right now.

I am hoping that I can regain a sense of normalcy that I crave in order to feel balance and harmony.

Steel~ You asked me what I meant about being at the bottom of the barrel: I feel that I couldn't sink any lower. That my very foundation is breaking apart and I have just been band~aiding the situation for far too long without getting any positive feedback in return, to fill my reserves, so to speak.

All the chaos and turmoil is taking a toll on me and my emotional spirit. I was hoping for some feedback here, to help me develop a hopeful strategy, to feel empowered enough to dust myself off and get back in the game.

I hope this wasn't too bloggy and rambling, I am experiencing a respite from the daily routine and hopeful that it will be just the enema I needed! Thanks for reading.

Also, I am dedicated to making an effort on this particular forum, to open up more and try and participate in some good debate. I am strictly an ameteur but hope to learn from others here who have the gift of expression and perhaps come up with some hearty discussion:)

I will be brainstorming for more interesting topics!

[steelady]

That my very foundation is breaking apart and I have just been band~aiding the situation for far too long without getting any positive feedback in return, to fill my reserves, so to speak.

BTDT, I decided to just leave a pup tent and some trail mix down there for my next visit.

If you look around, it's the backpack with the Rosie the Riveter logo on it. Help yourself.

[steelady]

Very true Tweet. I suppose I was looking at the mind set of when people push their disbelief, just like how extremists push their beliefs on their children. That is the mind set that I want to stay away from. I don't want to plant a seed of doubt in my kids mind, when usually I figure out how I feel by prayer and reading. They aren't at that point yet when they can do that themselves, so I am hesitant to say anything because they can't take it farther. Now, once the boys get older, I can talk to them about things, but for now I'll stick to reading the bible to them and us talking about things like the Ark.


I have some questions for non church goers, non-believers, or what ever category you fall into. What do you tell your children when they ask about God? Do you tell them how non believers are and how believers are? If they want to go to church or read the Bible, do you? If they don't believe or ask, do you feel it is because of how you believe? Just how I hope that my kids don't feel pressured to follow God because of us, do you feel that way about your child's choice in regards to God?

I'm not trying to catch anyone at a "HA!" moment in your lives. I'm just tossing somethings around in my mind.

I wish I could answer your questions, but spirituality isn't something ds has really expressed an interest in yet.

Since we never know how we will handle things when they happen, I'll just tell you what I hope I would say, if the conversation were to come up now (he's 6).

I would likely tell him that some people believe in a diety or higher power. Others do not. I would do my best to try and answer his questions (whatever they may be) to the best of my ability and encourage him to ask others. If he did want to go to church, I would take him. To be honest, I would take him to a Catholic church because that is the religion with which I'm familiar. If he expressed interest in a different church, I would try and find someone I know (and trust) to take him.

For me, the goal would be to pass on the ability to choose for himself. However, I realize I am raising my son differently than a lot of people because he is different. He gets a lot of freedom in his life, to make decisions for himself because he needs whatever amount of control he can find in his life; it helps keep the anxiety down and his hyperactivity in check. For him, there is no pushing of ideas or beliefs. It just doesn't happen. He will only accept facts/beliefs that he comes to, not based upon anything I or his dad says. It's hard to explain. We have an odd relationship where I trust him to not play me too much (and I'm fairly good at reading this these days) and he trusts me to let him test what I tell him.

I know the path I've taken. I've seen the path that others have taken to a completely different place. My goal would be to make sure he sees that there is a path and that it's ok for him to walk it.

[still_me]

You are a really good momma, Steel.

[steelady]

I wish. I didn't choose to raise him this way, he did. I'm just trying to catch up.

[still_me]

Steel, from what you post on here, it seems like you try your best to do what you can. You are supporting your child, and helping him walk a path that isn't always smooth. That is a beautiful thing. The fact that you are even aware of his own path makes you a good momma.

[Nipple_nectar]

Steel, from what you post on here, it seems like you try your best to do what you can. You are supporting your child, and helping him walk a path that isn't always smooth. That is a beautiful thing. The fact that you are even aware of his own path makes you a good momma.

ICAM:) Thanks for the giggle, Steel, leaving a snack for me was ever so thoughtful {{{hugs}}}

[JudyJudyJudy]

I have some questions for non church goers, non-believers, or what ever category you fall into. What do you tell your children when they ask about God? Do you tell them how non believers are and how believers are? If they want to go to church or read the Bible, do you? If they don't believe or ask, do you feel it is because of how you believe? Just how I hope that my kids don't feel pressured to follow God because of us, do you feel that way about your child's choice in regards to God?
When you're in such an extreme minority as we are, this isn't an issue. My son is exposed to God practically every time he leaves the house and often when the TV is on. He has been scared by believers—told that he will go to hell if he doesn't believe, etc., so it's not something we could pretend didn't exist even if we wanted to do so.

He has asked me about God, the Bible, etc., and I explain as best as I can on his level. In reality, I know more about the Bible than the large majority of Christians I know, so this isn't an issue. We've read and discussed Bible stories together, but likewise, we've read stories from and about the beliefs of other religions as well. Also, we read books that talk about morals and decision-making from a completely nonreligious standpoint, something I find that many Christians don't think exists.

I want my son to know that he has a choice. However, I don't want him to think that he only has two choices: not to believe like me (or be agnostic like his father) or to believe in the Christian god. There are so many options out there, and I don't want him to feel limited.