What constitutes child abuse/neglect?

[Shaunsmom]

My dear sister has four children. I've posted about her here before. She has four children all with four different fathers. None of the fathers are in any of the children's lives.

Sister has a very nasty dirty house. She has no washing machine and does not hand wash the children's clothes. The two older ones often go to school in nasty dirty clothes. There are no clean clothes in the house for any of the kids.

The house itself is nasty filthy dirty. It's a two story house with a basement and it's filth from top to bottom and side to side.

Older sis is a closet alcoholic and that is her priority.

Someone that was at her house today said she was calling the cops and CPS on my sister for neglect. That someone knows how sister's house looks...older sister took off from her house and is hiding out at younger sister's boyfriends house until 4:30 today. Older sis thinks that if she can hide out til 4:30, then that is the end of the business day and they (cops/CPS) won't catch her today anyhow.

Lil sis feels caught in the middle of older sis and the system. Lil sis thinks there's a good chance that CPS would take all four kids today, if CPS were to see older sis's living conditions at her house. Boy, what a mess.

What constitutes child abuse/neglect...enough that CPS would take the kids?

And please, if there are details that I missed- ask away. I will try to answer as detailed as possible.

[MrsKitty]

I don't know, but I don't think CPS cares how many fathers the children have.

[Iconoclast]

Why are you asking?

[Tweet]

I don't really know, but I would imagine that filth would be something they'd consider neglectful enough for removal. I am talking way more than just messy or a day or two's worth of yuck. More than an unswept floor,kwim? If it's downright filthy,like with extreme dirt and grime and it's never cleaned.

i would also think that filthy clothes would be of great concern. And also the alcohol problems. They do definitely sound neglected,I'm afraid. Is there anyone that could take all of them? I hate the thought of them all being separated if they are taken. If it were me, I'd move heaven and earth to have them.

[Peeka2]

Most places have caseworkers that do house calls like that in the evening. Hiding out isn't going to do much but a caseworker can not force her to let her in...


I am only read bits of this...as I am on the phone...I will comment more on it later.

[Tweet]

I don't remember the stories you've posted so I'm wondering why no one has intervened before this and a friend is the only one stepping in. I apologize in advance if y'all have done something and I don't remember.

[Iconoclast]

I don't remember the stories you've posted so I'm wondering why no one has intervened before this and a friend is the only one stepping in. I apologize in advance if y'all have done something and I don't remember.

That is why I want to know the OPs motives. Is she trying to see that the children are placed in a suitable enviornment, or trying to see they get to stay in their current squallor?

[Tweet]

That is why I want to know the OPs motives. Is she trying to see that the children are placed in a suitable enviornment, or trying to see they get to stay in their current squallor?

Me,too. I know it's hard to see a family member go down the tubes, but really, the kids should be the focus here.

[jessiehannan]

Has any one offered her use of their washer and dryer to wash the kids clothes? Handwashing clothes for a family of five is a chore, and pretty overwhelming if you have never had to do it before. (Not that that is an excuse) Or given her money to the laundry mat if she needs it? (or seeing as she is an alcoholic, going with her to the laundry mat and putting the quarters in the machine for her)

[Tweet]

Enabling is not going to help things,IMO.

[jessiehannan]

Enabling is not going to help things,IMO.

I don't see how offering use of a washing machine is enabling. (I really don't)
However, I could understand not wanting the nasty dirty clothes to come into my house. I'd probably tolerate it for the kids though.

[Iconoclast]

Laundry isn't really the issue. Parental fitness is the issue.

[BoobySnacks]

I would consider letting children live in filth and grime neglect. I mean most people with children have some clutter and stuff, but the way you describe her house sounds terrible and probably very unhealthy for children to live in. Also, not washing her children's clothes, that is just awful and I imagine it would definitely be considered neglect by CPS. Why hasn't a family member stepped in to this situation to see that these kids are taken care of?

[jessiehannan]

Laundry isn't really the issue. Parental fitness is the issue.
I know that. But it would be one thing if it was, "didn't wash her kids clothes w/access to a washer".
Either way, it sounds ugly.

[Tweet]

I don't see how offering use of a washing machine is enabling. (I really don't)
However, I could understand not wanting the nasty dirty clothes to come into my house. I'd probably tolerate it for the kids though.


Except that the laundry isn't the only issue. Allowing the kids to stay in a filthy home with an alcoholic parent is enabling. Hiding out said alcoholic parenting is enabling. Cleaning up after alcoholic parent is enabling.

It would be a lot different if it was just helping out someone that needs help. But this goes far beyond someone needing help washing clothes.

[Shaunsmom]

I don't know, but I don't think CPS cares how many fathers the children have.

I'm sure they don't care about the four fathers either. I'm just saying what is maybe relevant as far as basic info on my older sister.

[Iconoclast]

I know that.

Really? I didn't infer it from your responses.

[Shaunsmom]

Why are you asking?

Because I'm wondering if her kids will possibly get taken or if the filth/grime and alcoholism is a factor in neglect.

Oh never mind, the filth/grime is being worked on as I am typing. Older sis and two of her friends are busy as bee's- cleaning away now. Cleaning away now, just in case the cops and CPS come back to check out her living conditions.

If they don't come back today, then she's calling ICW (Indian Child Welfare- as we are native) tomorrow and asking them to come witness her beautifully cleaned house.

[QuiltyConscience]

Cps doesn't always respond to a call within 30 minutes, like Domino's. It may take a few days for someone to actually come by, if they even think it is warranted based on a " house is filthy " call. That's not exactly an emergency, YKWIM? And if they do come by and find her not home, I doubt they will just scratch it off their to do list and say " oh well, nobody is home, I guess we are done".

So her hiding out in somebody's basement probably isn't accomplishing anything. Why the basement anyway?

Lil sis is caught in the middle, because she let her come to her house to hide from CPS instead of telling her that she should maybe go clean her damn house and get her shit together.



So Sis hiding at her other sister's house today probably isn't going to do anything

[MrsKitty]

I'm sure they don't care about the four fathers either. I'm just saying what is maybe relevant as far as basic info on my older sister.


I'm not really sure why that is relevant.

[3girls2luv]

I am suprised that the school has not said anything being that the other children go to school in dirty clothes. I think it is neglectful for a parent to put alcohol before their children's needs and this is what needs to be proven in order for CPS to actually remove the children from the home. I'm guessing it really depends on what they see in the house when they make the visit. They will more than likely speak to the kids as well. Hopefully there is someone in the family that can take all of them till the house gets cleaned up. I feel so bad for children in situations like this one.

[SerialMom]

I know of somebody who had CPS brought into their home after one of their small children suffered a broken leg - I don't think there were any charges from that but it is standard procedure for a hospital to call when a small child has an injury like that. Anyway, parents cared more about drinking and hitting the bong than caring for their children - the house was a disgusting, filthy mess, piles of garbage, old clothing, trash, etc - neither the carpet nor the floor had ever met a broom or vacuum - the kids were removed and placed with Grandma immediately since mom and dad did not have the means to even secure another place to live.

So yes, you can have your children removed for forcing them to live in filth and squalor and not caring for their basic needs. As they should be.

[jessiehannan]

Except that the laundry isn't the only issue. Allowing the kids to stay in a filthy home with an alcoholic parent is enabling. Hiding out said alcoholic parenting is enabling. Cleaning up after alcoholic parent is enabling.

It would be a lot different if it was just helping out someone that needs help. But this goes far beyond someone needing help washing clothes.
I never said for her to clean up after her sister.
I don't know if her sister works, if she has the money to go to the laundry mat, etc. Neither do you, as it hasn't been stated. That is why I was asking.
As for the filthy floor, it shouldn't have gotten to that point.

[QuiltyConscience]

Has any one offered her use of their washer and dryer to wash the kids clothes? Handwashing clothes for a family of five is a chore, and pretty overwhelming if you have never had to do it before. (Not that that is an excuse) Or given her money to the laundry mat if she needs it? (or seeing as she is an alcoholic, going with her to the laundry mat and putting the quarters in the machine for her)


So should someone go over and clean her house too?

[Tweet]

Because I'm wondering if her kids will possibly get taken or if the filth/grime and alcoholism is a factor in neglect.

Oh never mind, the filth/grime is being worked on as I am typing. Older sis and two of her friends are busy as bee's- cleaning away now. Cleaning away now, just in case the cops and CPS come back to check out her living conditions.

If they don't come back today, then she's calling ICW (Indian Child Welfare- as we are native) tomorrow and asking them to come witness her beautifully cleaned house.


Older sis is the one that is the alcoholic or is this a different sister? This is incredibly sad.

[Iconoclast]

Well of course filth/grime and alcoholism are a factor in neglect. Good for you for cleaning her house for her. I'm sure they will all live happily ever after now.

[QuiltyConscience]

I'm not really sure why that is relevant.

because surely someone would have asked " where is the kid's dad, and why isn't he doing anything to help?"

[QuiltyConscience]

Well of course filth/grime and alcoholism are a factor in neglect. Good for you for cleaning her house for her. I'm sure they will all live happily ever after now.

She said her sister's two friends were cleaning the house for her.

[leosmommy]

It would be helpful to know if family has tried to intervene and whether or not that has helped. IMO people who are functioning in a healthy way do not live in filth. To me, living in filth indicates that there is much more going on than an aversion to cleaning and doing laundry.

[Tweet]

I never said for her to clean up after her sister.
I don't know if her sister works, if she has the money to go to the laundry mat, etc. Neither do you, as it hasn't been stated. That is why I was asking.
As for the filthy floor, it shouldn't have gotten to that point.


Washing clothes is part of "cleaning up after" in my world, don't know about yours. But that's what I was referring to.

And as I stated, this is not a case of simply helping someone out because they don't have a washer and dryer. And in this case, yes, making sure her kid's laundry is done would be enabling. It does not matter if she works or not. The fact is that she is an active alcoholic that cannot function enough to clean her home and take care of her children (going by what the OP has said).

[Tweet]

And I am doubtful that just because it's clean right now doesn't mean that CPS is going to just write it off, although I'd suppose a lot would depend on what this friend told them.

[Becca75]

Well of course filth/grime and alcoholism are a factor in neglect. Good for you for cleaning her house for her. I'm sure they will all live happily ever after now.

OP didn't clean the house for her. The sister's friends did it.

I do agree that one day's cleaning isn't going to make her a better parent. She obviously didn't rent/buy a house in that condition, so chances are it will get back to that point. It also doesn't solve the clothes problem either. It sounds like she needs some time away from her kids to clean herself up as well as her house.

[Iconoclast]

She said her sister's two friends were cleaning the house for her.

I don't know which is worse, enabling the drunkard by stepping in to be sure the kids stay in substandard living conditions, or not even caring enough to do that much.

[Tweet]

It seems like the kids ought to be the focus. Her house is getting clean, yay. That is not going to change the fact that the kids are subjected to alcoholism and are being neglected as a result of it. It's bothering me that the worry is about poor sister and her fucked up house. The worry should be for those kids.

[Shaunsmom]

I don't really know, but I would imagine that filth would be something they'd consider neglectful enough for removal. I am talking way more than just messy or a day or two's worth of yuck. More than an unswept floor,kwim? If it's downright filthy,like with extreme dirt and grime and it's never cleaned.

i would also think that filthy clothes would be of great concern. And also the alcohol problems. They do definitely sound neglected,I'm afraid. Is there anyone that could take all of them? I hate the thought of them all being separated if they are taken. If it were me, I'd move heaven and earth to have them.

It's nasty filthy. Months of uncleaned dirty living conditions. Imagine 5 people's worth of dirty laundry. That is spewed all over her house.

The fridge doesn't work and there is nasty filthy old food still being stored in there. Turkey and all the fixings from Thanksgiving are still in there.

My sister seems to be more concerned with being her children's friend than a mother.

[jessiehannan]

I don't know which is worse, enabling the drunkard by stepping in to be sure the kids stay in substandardliving conditions, or not even caring enough to do that much.

This is what I was trying to say.
If she is unable to care for her children, then why wasn't some sort of help given, or at least offered? It doesn't make much sense to me to damn some one for not doing something when they are unable to do it, with out trying to help them first? (and by helping, I do NOT mean do it for them)

[QuiltyConscience]

I don't know which is worse, enabling the drunkard by stepping in to be sure the kids stay in substandard living conditions, or not even caring enough to do that much.

Because neither one is going to actually fix the problem?

You know, I find the "Which of these two things is worse" scenarios annoying as fuck.
There are several other things to do here other than just those two choices, so picking two things and trying to figure out which is just a little less bad than the other is pointless.

The house being a filthy mess is bad, but not the main problem.

It's like looking at a house that's been bombed and worrying if you should use rubbing alcohol or windex to get the one unbroken window clean.

[Shaunsmom]

Has any one offered her use of their washer and dryer to wash the kids clothes? Handwashing clothes for a family of five is a chore, and pretty overwhelming if you have never had to do it before. (Not that that is an excuse) Or given her money to the laundry mat if she needs it? (or seeing as she is an alcoholic, going with her to the laundry mat and putting the quarters in the machine for her)

You gotta be outta your mind if you think anyone is going to offer to do this for her.

We live on one side of town and she lives way on the other side of town.

[jessiehannan]

It's nasty filthy. Months of uncleaned dirty living conditions. Imagine 5 people's worth of dirty laundry. That is spewed all over her house.

The fridge doesn't work and there is nasty filthy old food still being stored in there. Turkey and all the fixings from Thanksgiving are still in there.

My sister seems to be more concerned with being her children's friend than a mother.

Why hasn't CPS been called before?

If she is an alcoholic she isn't capable of being a mother.

[Shaunsmom]

I'm not really sure why that is relevant.

Let's see...someone may ask why the dad doesn't help out with the kids...that's for that answer. There are four daddies and not one is in the picture.

[jessiehannan]

You gotta be outta your mind if you think anyone is going to offer to do this for her.

We live on one side of town and she lives way on the other side of town.


Why won't any one offer to do this?

I live two towns away from my MIL (1/2 hour) and we use her washer when we can't afford the laundry mat and it is too cold for me to (reasonably) wash clothes by hand.

[Shaunsmom]

Cps doesn't always respond to a call within 30 minutes, like Domino's. It may take a few days for someone to actually come by, if they even think it is warranted based on a " house is filthy " call. That's not exactly an emergency, YKWIM? And if they do come by and find her not home, I doubt they will just scratch it off their to do list and say " oh well, nobody is home, I guess we are done".

So her hiding out in somebody's basement probably isn't accomplishing anything. Why the basement anyway?

Lil sis is caught in the middle, because she let her come to her house to hide from CPS instead of telling her that she should maybe go clean her damn house and get her shit together.



So Sis hiding at her other sister's house today probably isn't going to do anything

She's not hiding out in the basement of someone's house Quilty. I said her house is nasty filthy (or something like that) and it's a two story house with a basement.

[3girls2luv]

It's nasty filthy. Months of uncleaned dirty living conditions. Imagine 5 people's worth of dirty laundry. That is spewed all over her house.

The fridge doesn't work and there is nasty filthy old food still being stored in there. Turkey and all the fixings from Thanksgiving are still in there.

My sister seems to be more concerned with being her children's friend than a mother.


That is horrible!!!! Do the kids have any kind of food in the house at all? Did you actually see the old food in the frige? What have you done to help these children? If CPS comes in and sees this and they realize that family members have seen this and have done nothing, then I doubt these kids will be sent to live with family members who did nothing to help them.

[Shaunsmom]

Well of course filth/grime and alcoholism are a factor in neglect. Good for you for cleaning her house for her. I'm sure they will all live happily ever after now.

Hello Iconoclast, read.

I am not cleaning her house for her. Older sis and her two friends are cleaning the house now.

[Shaunsmom]

Older sis is the one that is the alcoholic or is this a different sister? This is incredibly sad.

Older sis is the one that is the alcoholic with four kids.

[3girls2luv]

Hello Iconoclast, read.

I am not cleaning her house for her. Older sis and her two friends are cleaning the house now.


I'm sorry but this made me laugh... ok back to the thread...sorry.

[jessiehannan]

If the situation was that bad since Thanksgiving, why haven't you called CPS before now, instead of waiting for some one else to do it?

[Iconoclast]

OP, WTF is wrong with you? You have known all this for months (yes, I remember you posting about this before) and week after week, month after month, you do nothing. Forget enabling, you are complicit in the neglect of these children!

[Tweet]

What are you getting pissy for, OP? Are you shocked that it might be hard for someone reading this drama to misunderstand or misread the details? That's quite a bus load of shit going on.

Have you contacted CPS before?

[Shaunsmom]

Why hasn't CPS been called before?

If she is an alcoholic she isn't capable of being a mother.

You mean called before this incident or called in the past, in general? They've been called before. She was charged with misdemeanor child neglect in 2006.

We had an alcoholic for a mother. She was very capable of being a mother. Stones and glass houses come to mind, sorry.

[Tweet]

OP, WTF is wrong with you? You have known all this for months (yes, I remember you posting about this before) and week after week, month after month, you do nothing. Forget enabling, you are complicit in the neglect of these children!

I agree. If this has been going for so long and not a soul in that family has done anything for those children, it is aiding in the neglect.

[QuiltyConscience]

This is what I was trying to say.
If she is unable to care for her children, then why wasn't some sort of help given, or at least offered? It doesn't make much sense to me to damn some one for not doing something when they are unable to do it, with out trying to help them first? (and by helping, I do NOT mean do it for them)



Maybe people in general get fed up with trying to help people who don't do anything to help themselves. It's my responsibility to feed and care for my kids. That pretty much takes up most of my resources.

No damned way am I going to spend my family's money to buy a washing machine for somebody who can't be bothered to try to handwash an outfit. Seriously, a washing machine is not the issue!

[Shaunsmom]

OP, WTF is wrong with you? You have known all this for months (yes, I remember you posting about this before) and week after week, month after month, you do nothing. Forget enabling, you are complicit in the neglect of these children!

Nothing the fuck is wrong with me. Why are you jumping on my case?

[Iconoclast]

Hello Iconoclast, read.

I am not cleaning her house for her. Older sis and her two friends are cleaning the house now.

Hello Shaunsmom, fuck off. I can go back and reread. You can't go back and undo what has been done to those children. You are a piss poor excuse for an aunt.

[Bohemian]

I don't know which is worse, enabling the drunkard by stepping in to be sure the kids stay in substandard living conditions, or not even caring enough to do that much.


No kidding. I'm sort of disgusted that the op is just wondering and has known about the kids living like this and hasn't involved CPS herself. When kids are in a situation like this their only hope is that someone that isn't as fucked up as their mom takes notice and gets them the necessary help. Instead we have a op that doesn't do anything and people are cleaning her house so that the kids and go right back to their regularly scheduled neglectful life next week. WTF? I am thoroughly disgusted.

[Shaunsmom]

What are you getting pissy for, OP? Are you shocked that it might be hard for someone reading this drama to misunderstand or misread the details? That's quite a bus load of shit going on.

Have you contacted CPS before?

Yes, I called on her when the power was off for a couple of weeks in the fall. They did nothing. Even with her living conditions. Nothing at all.

Not getting pissy. I agree, it's a busload of shit.

[jessiehannan]

Quilty I never said to buy her a washing machine. However, use of a washing machine just might turn the chore of handwashing ALL of those clothes into something that is actually doable.
How many people have actually had to handwash clothes for their entire family?
I have, and it is a chore that I have a hard time staying on top.

[Shaunsmom]

Hello Shaunsmom, fuck off. I can go back and reread. You can't go back and undo what has been done to those children. You are a piss poor excuse for an aunt.

You fuck off and get off my case. I'm asking for help here not asking to be jumped all over because I haven't called CPS this time.

[QuiltyConscience]

She's not hiding out in the basement of someone's house Quilty. I said her house is nasty filthy (or something like that) and it's a two story house with a basement.


Okay. Not the basement. But you did say she is hiding out at the sisters boyfriend's house.

Why is he letting her hide there? Have you called CPS yourself about all this?

[Tweet]

Nothing the fuck is wrong with me. Why are you jumping on my case?


Because you post this horrible, horrible scenario and you don't seem to be showing any concern for those children? That might be one reason.

And if she's been charged with misdemeanor child neglect a few years ago, you likely don't need to ask what constitutes neglect. You know better and I have no idea why you even bothered posting this .

[Shaunsmom]

Okay. Not the basement. But you did say she is hiding out at the sisters boyfriend's house.

Why is he letting her hide there? Have you called CPS yourself about all this?

Just got off the phone. According to them- it's hearsay and they are not going to look into it.

Okay, I called. I am concerned but what am I supposed to do? Go and take her kids away so she can get a break and get her life together?

[Tweet]

You fuck off and get off my case. I'm asking for help here not asking to be jumped all over because I haven't called CPS this time.


I'm sorry, what help have you asked for? All you've done is asked if living in filth is neglect and then a post that sounded like relief that the house has been cleaned. I don't think Icon is the one that needs to fuck off in this thread.

You are making my stomach hurt. How on earth you could let this go on and not try to get help for those kids is beyond me. I don't see how anyone could live with that.

[Iconoclast]

OK, I'll fuck off. :shrug: After all, I don't even know these kids. They are your family not mine. If you don't care enough to help them, why should I bother with you? I won't have to try to sleep tonight with this on my conscience.

cheers

[QuiltyConscience]

Quilty I never said to buy her a washing machine. However, use of a washing machine just might turn the chore of handwashing ALL of those clothes into something that is actually doable.
How many people have actually had to handwash clothes for their entire family?
I have, and it is a chore that I have a hard time staying on top.

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE THE GODDAMNED WASHING MACHINE DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER!1!!ELEVEN

The alcoholism and the neglect that has resulted in the filthy living conditions, that is the problem.

[Shaunsmom]

I'm sorry, what help have you asked for? All you've done is asked if living in filth is neglect and then a post that sounded like relief that the house has been cleaned. I don't think Icon is the one that needs to fuck off in this thread.

You are making my stomach hurt. How on earth you could let this go on and not try to get help for those kids is beyond me. I don't see how anyone could live with that.

The help was if this constitutes child abuse/neglect, then I could call this into CPS. Making sure that this isn't making a mountain out of a molehill.

I did call. Once in the fall (CPS did nothing) and again today...based on what I've told CPS...they say it's hearsay and won't be looking into it.

[Iconoclast]

It's fucking dumb and dumber around here.

[jessiehannan]

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE THE GODDAMNED WASHING MACHINE DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER!1!!ELEVEN

The alcoholism and the neglect that has resulted in the filthy living conditions, that is the problem.

not to mention the fact that the OP and her family have known about the living conditions since November and have failed to do anything.

[Bohemian]

Nothing the fuck is wrong with me. Why are you jumping on my case?


Because your case needs to be fucking jumped. What kind of person knows that children are living like this and just calls once and gives up? I would be relentless in involving the authorities or trying to get the kids myself until those kids were safe and being taken cared of.

[Iconoclast]

Bohemian, read. She is asking for help, goddamnit. Help to live with the guilt I guess, since she can't be bothered to intervene.

[QuiltyConscience]

Just got off the phone. According to them- it's hearsay and they are not going to look into it.

Okay, I called. I am concerned but what am I supposed to do? Go and take her kids away so she can get a break and get her life together?



That's not a totally bad idea.. What has been done already?

Okay, so you know that CPS isn't going to do a thing now. I'm a bit baffled though, wouldn't anything reported to CPS be hearsay? If they need more proof then get some.

Has anybody sat down with her and talked to her about seeking treatment for Alcoholism? Does she want help for that?

What if several family members got together and said, how about we handle the kids for awhile and you go for treatment?

[SerialMom]

Just got off the phone. According to them- it's hearsay and they are not going to look into it.

Okay, I called. I am concerned but what am I supposed to do? Go and take her kids away so she can get a break and get her life together?

Sooo... are all calls, esp the anonymous ones to CPS hearsay? I mean, since people just call and report other people.... You have seen the house, no? So it is not hearsay?

And yes, offering to help her with her kids while she gets her shit together is EXACTLY what you could be doing. Esp if you grew up in similar conditions and know exactly what it is like.

[QuiltyConscience]

The help was if this constitutes child abuse/neglect, then I could call this into CPS. Making sure that this isn't making a mountain out of a molehill.

I did call. Once in the fall (CPS did nothing) and again today...based on what I've told CPS...they say it's hearsay and won't be looking into it.


You know your sister, we don't. You know what is going on there, and how bad it is, we are just reading your account of it, and don't know all the details.

From your account it sounds pretty bad. As for the hearsay, I don't know what to make of that. Do you need to see the house yourself and report it? Take picture and turn them in or what?

[jessiehannan]

That's not a totally bad idea.. What has been done already?

Okay, so you know that CPS isn't going to do a thing now. I'm a bit baffled though, wouldn't anything reported to CPS be hearsay? If they need more proof then get some.

Has anybody sat down with her and talked to her about seeking treatment for Alcoholism? Does she want help for that?

What if several family members got together and said, how about we handle the kids for awhile and you go for treatment?


You gotta be outta your mind if you think anyone is going to offer to do this for her.

We live on one side of town and she lives way on the other side of town.

if this was the response on using a washer....

[Iconoclast]

Jesse, stop with the fucking washing machine already. You are killing me here girl.

[SerialMom]

if this was the response on using a washer....


I know, nice fucking family there....

[Tweet]

There are a few things you can do

1. Call CPS every damn day

2. Get a family intervention organized

3. Start attending Al-Anon regularly. You can also attend meetings for Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACOA). This can be very helpful and a good source of support.

[QuiltyConscience]

Bit if a difference between buying a fucking washing machine and trying to get somebody into rehab, though, right?

[Bohemian]

I'm a bit baffled though, wouldn't anything reported to CPS be hearsay? If they need more proof then get some.

Yeah pretty much every call to CPS is going to be hearsay.I call BS that she called and they dismissed it.

Shaunsmom, if you have to you go into the house with a video camera, do it. You are either lying about your sister or from what you've said it would be easy enough to get proof if that's what you need.

Alert the teachers that mom is an alcoholic, if abuse in any form is reported to them they as mandated reports must make a CPS report.

CPS will not just ignore an alcoholic mother unable to care for children. If you have to, you sit on her god damn doorstep and when she is good and drunk you call the cops.

[jessiehannan]

Jesse, stop with the fucking washing machine already. You are killing me here girl.

I'm done! I promise. But I do have a point in my last post.

[Tweet]

But for the love of pete, stop sitting there with a thumb up your arse and look into getting those children somewhere safe. Someone should be able to take them in until she can get her shit together. It just boggles my mind. I have three of my own children, but if my nephews and niece or step niece were in those conditions, they'd be with us and we'd make it work.

[Tweet]

Yeah pretty much every call to CPS is going to be hearsay.I call BS that she called and they dismissed it.

Shaunsmom, if you have to you go into the house with a video camera, do it. You are either lying about your sister or from what you've said it would be easy enough to get proof if that's what you need.

Alert the teachers that mom is an alcoholic, if abuse in any form is reported to them they as mandated reports must make a CPS report.

CPS will not just ignore an alcoholic mother unable to care for children. If you have to, you sit on her god damn doorstep and when she is good and drunk you call the cops.


All of this. In addition to calling them non stop, add the school(s) to the list. They are mandated reporters.

Something does not smell right here and it's not just the dirty house and clothes.

[Iconoclast]

I'm done! I promise. But I do have a point in my last post.

I get it. Move on, nothing to see here.

[SerialMom]

Is it just me, or do others sense animosity towards the older sister and for some reason that is clouding her judgement of doing what is right for the children? Like the washer.. paraphrased - "Nobody is going to go across town and do that for her". But it's not for *her* it's for the kids. KWIM?

[Iconoclast]

Something does not smell right here and it's not just the dirty house and clothes.

It seems to me the OP gets pretty much the same response every 6 months when she posts this crap.

What the hell, I didn't have anythig to do this afternoon anyway.

[Tweet]

Yeah, but then again it's hard not to hold resentment when you've grown up that way and then another family is doing the same thing. However, I absolutely agree that right now those kids should be the priority.

[SerialMom]

Yeah, but then again it's hard not to hold resentment when you've grown up that way and then another family is doing the same thing. However, I absolutely agree that right now those kids should be the priority.


I agree, was just hoping OP would get that.

[QuiltyConscience]

Is it just me, or do others sense animosity towards the older sister and for some reason that is clouding her judgement of doing what is right for the children? Like the washer.. paraphrased - "Nobody is going to go across town and do that for her". But it's not for *her* it's for the kids. KWIM?


I see more of a "I've given up on trying to help her out because it does no good". And I can really understand that.

I would imagine that this sister has caused a lot of heartache for everybody in the family, for a long time. It probably did not start out at this extreme, but gradually got worse.

Perhaps in the beginning it was small things, and family did try to help out but were turned away or screamed at or taken advantage of.

It's hard to watch a loved one self destruct and not be able to stop them. You can't force the alcoholic into treatment if she doesn't want to go. You can't make her clean her house, and you can't make her be responsible.

For many, it is easier to pull back from that family member in the beginning stages, when things are just starting to get bad, instead of the constant heartache of seeing them destroy the person you loved. By the time things have really gotten out of control, The person has either pissed everybody off or broken every heart that may have been willing to help.

Been there with a family member.. Nothing simple or easy about it. No clear cut answers to just fix it all and make it better. Sometimes family intervening will wake somebody up, and sometimes the family has tried every legal thing they can do and it doesn't make a damn difference.

Do what you can do. Try to get her to seek treatment;if she does not want that, then it's time to write her off and focus on what you can to get the kids out of her home. Keep checking on the kids, offer to let them stay with you on weekends, write down things you see, take pictures, keep involved with them. For their sake, not hers.

[Tweet]

I really agree with Quilty. It is not easy having addictions be a constant in your life. I really do recommend attending the Al Anon and/or ACOA meetings for support. It is easy to feel defeated and alone.

It does not surprise or shock me that this sister could be written off. We don't know what's all gone on. But I agree with Quilty that even if that is case here, the kids shouldn't just be lumped in with the mother as a lost cause. Someone needs to help see that they are protected.

[SerialMom]

Pretty much CM

When somebody falls down, do we go around and tell everybody they fell or do we help them up?

[Peeka2]

Call the cops and request a welfare check for all the kids. Hopefully when the cops show they will see the state of the house and call cps.

[3girls2luv]

OP I hope you do something for the sake of these kids. I do not believe that CPS would actually tell you that is "hearsay" I just don't buy that. Get something done for those kids take over some nice hot food to them or invite them over to eat dinner at your house and maybe even stay over. Poor babies it just makes me so sad that these children are living like this and you and your family do nothing about it. :(

[jessiehannan]

Try giving your local churches a call to see if any one can help them get a fridge, Hell, post on FreeCycle or Craigslist for a free one. (Assumming she doesn't have internet access)

[Tweet]

:X sitting on hands..

[QuiltyConscience]

Try giving your local churches a call to see if any one can help them get a fridge, Hell, post on FreeCycle or Craigslist for a free one. (Assumming she doesn't have internet access)

Enough already with you and the appliances!!

The washer - not the main problem
The fridge - not the main problem

and just in case: an oven, toaster, lamp, dishwasher, television, brand new car, blender, or even shamwows are not going to fix the problem. Giving her lots of money will not fix it. Doing her laundry , bringing her boxes and boxes of food, or even giving her a new house will not make anything better for more than a short time.

[Peeka2]

Try giving your local churches a call to see if any one can help them get a fridge, Hell, post on FreeCycle or Craigslist for a free one. (Assumming she doesn't have internet access)


Ok, not to be snarky or anything but how is that going to help? This "mom" obviously does not care if her children have food, clean clothes or a decent place to live. GIVING her things to help care for her children is NOT going to help if she isn't going to care for them. Its not going to fix a damn thing.

If this mom did care for the welfare of her child she would have FOUND a way to give her children decent food and clean clothes no matter how much money she has or doesn't have.

The solution here isn't going to be to give this person money or "gifts". The solution is to get this mother in rehab and get those children into a safe home. That is the ONLY solution.

[foxinsocks]

I think its nice that you are helping her clean her house and get a new fridge. I wonder why you can't help her with the laundry too? She and those kids are so lucky that you are helping them with their situation!

Do you wonder about those kids? If they have eaten their dinner, if anyone helped them with their homework, if they got a tylenol for a fever, if they have warm pajamas on???? That would drive me nuts if I was involved in the situation.

[jessiehannan]

Ok, not to be snarky or anything but how is that going to help? This "mom" obviously does not care if her children have food, clean clothes or a decent place to live. GIVING her things to help care for her children is NOT going to help if she isn't going to care for them. Its not going to fix a damn thing.

If this mom did care for the welfare of her child she would have FOUND a way to give her children decent food and clean clothes no matter how much money she has or doesn't have.

The solution here isn't going to be to give this person money or "gifts". The solution is to get this mother in rehab and get those children into a safe home. That is the ONLY solution.

The OP doesn't seem want to spend any money or much effort into helping her sister and her nieces/nephews, so why not offer her some things to try that don't cost her much time and no money? Either she cares about the chldren andthat they children stay with her mother, or she just doesn't give a shit. (at least that is my view on things from her posts)

I just can't for the life of me see how any one could see that these kids need help and not do something, anything, until they got what they need and deserve.

[vulturemom]

I beilive that the condition of her house and the children's clothes constitutes neglect. I also think most case workers wouldn't remove the children but, open a case work with her on a plan to improve living conditions an follow up a few times.

[Peeka2]

The OP doesn't seem want to spend any money or much effort into helping her sister and her nieces/nephews, so why not offer her some things to try that don't cost her much time and no money? Either she cares about the chldren andthat they children stay with her mother, or she just doesn't give a shit. (at least that is my view on things from her posts)

The point is the OP is not responsible for those children. Their mother is. And if the mother is unable to care for them then outside help is needed. Just because a person has a washer doesn't mean there will be clean cloths.
Just because there is a fridge doesn't mean there will be food.

[Iconoclast]

Jesse, I fucking TOLD you to stop with the goddamn appliances.

[jessiehannan]

The "I tried but it didn't do anything" just irritates me beyond belief, I don't know why I am so stuck on this damned thread. It irritates me almost as much as the condtions described horrify me.

[Iconoclast]

So send the OPs sister a salad shooter or something and get over it.

[Crabbie]

:X sitting on hands..

Do your fingers hurt too?

[QuiltyConscience]

The "I tried but it didn't do anything" just irritates me beyond belief, I don't know why I am so stuck on this damned thread. It irritates me almost as much as the condtions described horrify me.

But.It.won't.fix.it.

[Shaunsmom]

It seems to me the OP gets pretty much the same response every 6 months when she posts this crap.

What the hell, I didn't have anythig to do this afternoon anyway.

No one made you come in and post, you chose to. I can't help that I have a sister like my older sister.

[Shaunsmom]

Eh, dirt doesn't bother me. You do seem mean though. You are her kids' aunt and you are more concerned with gossiping on a message board about her than helping.

How do you know what I am so concerned about? I had time at work and chose to vent here.

What do you know about helping a sister like mine?

[Shaunsmom]

The OP doesn't seem want to spend any money or much effort into helping her sister and her nieces/nephews, so why not offer her some things to try that don't cost her much time and no money? Either she cares about the chldren andthat they children stay with her mother, or she just doesn't give a shit. (at least that is my view on things from her posts)

I just can't for the life of me see how any one could see that these kids need help and not do something, anything, until they got what they need and deserve.

For your information, I buy the kids new clothes every school year, every Christmas, and every birthday. I then see the clothes laying on the floor, buried under garbage- laying all over the house. It's hard to buy things that are going to eventually end up laying around the house- like garbage.

She had her kids taken from her in November of 2006. CPS and the cops pulled them from her due to the living conditions and not having a working toilet. That's why I can't believe they (CPS) won't go and check out what I've told them today.

After a week of "behaving" and a clean house (and many hours of crying to ICW case workers)...the judge gave the kids right back to her. Geez, if that's not a slap in the face when we are trying to help her. Sure just give the kids right back to her, she'll be right back to her same ways in no time.

Sister refuses to let me take her kids unless I take all 4, which-to me, is unreasonable to ask one person to do.

[jessiehannan]

Why is it unreasonable?
Do you mean take them for the weekend, or take them while she goes for treatment?

[Bohemian]

No, you can't help having a sister like that Shaunsmom but you sure as shit could do something to help those kids. The fact that the kids have been in this situation for years and you've called once or twice and given up speaks volumes about you and your concern.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Shaunsmom, I find this entire situation to be sad. Since your mother is(?) an alcoholic (is she still alive?), and you think she was a very capable mother, I suspect your judgment on what is normal has been clouded. If she was an active alcoholic, she couldn't possibly have been the mother she should have been. It's damned sad that you don't realize that you and your siblings deserved better then and that your nieces and nephews deserve better now.

My mother is paranoid schizophrenic. After the death of my father, who was an alcoholic, my siblings closest to my age moved in with my oldest siblings, leaving me in the sticks alone with my mother. I'll be quite frank here. I resent the hell out of my aunts, uncles, and older siblings for not even bothering to check on me. They didn't know, and apparently didn't care, whether or not I was dead or alive. It fucking sucks to be a kid and have no one who will advocate for you.

This part is addressed to those who think Shaunsmom should take the clothes into her home and wash them: Hell, no, I wouldn't do that. If the house is as filthy as is being said, chances are that they have roaches for days. It's easy to bring roaches into your house in clothes, and it's damned hard to get rid of them. No, I wouldn't do it.

[Shaunsmom]

I see more of a "I've given up on trying to help her out because it does no good". And I can really understand that.

I would imagine that this sister has caused a lot of heartache for everybody in the family, for a long time. It probably did not start out at this extreme, but gradually got worse.

Perhaps in the beginning it was small things, and family did try to help out but were turned away or screamed at or taken advantage of.

It's hard to watch a loved one self destruct and not be able to stop them. You can't force the alcoholic into treatment if she doesn't want to go. You can't make her clean her house, and you can't make her be responsible.

For many, it is easier to pull back from that family member in the beginning stages, when things are just starting to get bad, instead of the constant heartache of seeing them destroy the person you loved. By the time things have really gotten out of control, The person has either pissed everybody off or broken every heart that may have been willing to help.

Been there with a family member.. Nothing simple or easy about it. No clear cut answers to just fix it all and make it better. Sometimes family intervening will wake somebody up, and sometimes the family has tried every legal thing they can do and it doesn't make a damn difference.

Do what you can do. Try to get her to seek treatment;if she does not want that, then it's time to write her off and focus on what you can to get the kids out of her home. Keep checking on the kids, offer to let them stay with you on weekends, write down things you see, take pictures, keep involved with them. For their sake, not hers.

Our extended family is huge. We are not close with our mom by any means. She is remarried and chooses not to have any voluntary contact with us (her children and grandchildren).

There are many avenues for "help" for older sister. She knows how to work the system but chooses to live her life the way she does.

I've been there, done that with my sister especially with helping. Helped watch her kids so she could work. Helped clean her house. It's always about who isn't helping her. She doesn't want help, at least not right now. She wants to be in control of her life. Her kids, her way...

I have my own family to tend to. It's not that I don't care because I do care and I do love her children (and her) very much. At this point, it's easier to try and get help for her without getting involved directly.

Of course everyone here can judge and flame me...do what you want, say what you want (and no, not you Quilty...just saying "you" in general). No one knows my sister the way that I do.

Everyday I think about my nieces and nephews. Think about how we were raised by an alcoholic single mother. Damned if we had to wear dirty clothes ever. We never had nasty filthy living conditions like the conditions at my sisters house.

I do not have animosity towards older sis. I just can't believe that she is doing the same harm to her children as what was done to us as children. It pisses me off, sure. I've done my share of helping her out with her kids as has our extended family. Thing is- most of our family will not tolerate her drinking or drugs and she can't be without the alcohol.

It's time for either CPS or Indian Child Welfare to step in and help her. Since all four children are enrolled members of our tribe, CPS has no say. They can initiate contact with ICW if they feel the situation needs it. ICW will then take control. My question is: if she was able to manipulate the ICW case workers this time like she did last time...then what?

I'm calling the cops tonight. See what will happen is this...she's had all day to clean her house. I'm sure it now looks somewhat suitable to live in it. Then what? The cops show up for a welfare check and the house is absolutely freaking beautifully clean.

[Bohemian]

Sister refuses to let me take her kids unless I take all 4, which-to me, is unreasonable to ask one person to do.

I would jump at the chance to take all 4 children and it wouldn't be unreasonable at all. It would be harder than shit but I'd do anything I could do to make it work and the state would help financially. If you assume custody you'd become their foster parent and they'd also automatically get state health insurance no matter your income.

[RaisingThemLeft]

Yeah, that sounds like neglect. Hopefully somone in your family (you or your other sister? I can't tell which sis is alcholic from that post, the kids mother or your other sis) can take the kids. It would be much better for them to be with a competant family member than a foster home with strangers. I haven't read the thread so I don't know if that's possible.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I don't know how ICW works, but CPS would check for food in the refrigerator as well as looking at whether or not the house is clean.

Is there anyone in the family who could take care of these kids?

[JudyJudyJudy]

RTL, the kids' mother, aka the older sister, is the alcoholic.

[RaisingThemLeft]

The point is the OP is not responsible for those children. Their mother is. And if the mother is unable to care for them then outside help is needed. Just because a person has a washer doesn't mean there will be clean cloths.
Just because there is a fridge doesn't mean there will be food.

After having read the thread, I agree. She can't just run her sister's household for her. The level of judgement here astounds me.

[Shaunsmom]

Shaunsmom, I find this entire situation to be sad. Since your mother is(?) an alcoholic (is she still alive?), and you think she was a very capable mother, I suspect your judgment on what is normal has been clouded. If she was an active alcoholic, she couldn't possibly have been the mother she should have been. It's damned sad that you don't realize that you and your siblings deserved better then and that your nieces and nephews deserve better now.

My mother is paranoid schizophrenic. After the death of my father, who was an alcoholic, my siblings closest to my age moved in with my oldest siblings, leaving me in the sticks alone with my mother. I'll be quite frank here. I resent the hell out of my aunts, uncles, and older siblings for not even bothering to check on me. They didn't know, and apparently didn't care, whether or not I was dead or alive. It fucking sucks to be a kid and have no one who will advocate for you.

This part is addressed to those who think Shaunsmom should take the clothes into her home and wash them: Hell, no, I wouldn't do that. If the house is as filthy as is being said, chances are that they have roaches for days. It's easy to bring roaches into your house in clothes, and it's damned hard to get rid of them. No, I wouldn't do it.

My mom got rehab when we were 10 and 11. Finally. It was a bit late but she did get fully rehabbed without relapsing. I say an alcoholic raised us because once an alcoholic, always one (or at least that's what they taught us in Alateen).

Boy, it was hard to reverse that on us. Forced to grow up at 4 and 5. Then 6 years later...try and get us to be kids again. What a mind fuck that was.

I do realize that the children deserve better. It sure is not going to be my responsibility to initiate the non-alcoholic road for my sister. We (me and my sister) did also deserve better while growing up under an alcoholic mother...but we survived. No sense in rehashing the coulda/shoulda/woulda's of that time.

[Shaunsmom]

After having read the thread, I agree. She can't just run her sister's household for her. The level of judgement here astounds me.

Thank you RTL:) Your kind words help. That is what I needed after this long hateful flame-filled post.

Excuse me, I am doing my best to raise my family including our two lovely children. I work full time. I go to school full time.

I'm not the responsible person for my sister's kids, as much as posters like Boho would like to dispute. They are her kids not mine. You would have thought I was talking about "me" needing help by the way people have responded here today.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I do realize that the children deserve better. It sure is not going to be my responsibility to initiate the non-alcoholic road for my sister.
I'm dealing with an assload of such stuff in my family right now. Fortunately, though, all of their kids are grown. I watched helplessly as my brother died due to alcoholism. I'm watching as another sister is dying from alcoholism and yet another sister is dying from legal prescription drugs. Another sister just got out of the hospital after 15 days with pneumonia and respiratory failure and still had a high WBC upon release; I won't be surprised if she returns, or has returned, to smoking, and I know that her husband is smoking around her and burning an improperly vented fireplace. I've finally faced the cold, hard fact that there isn't shit that I can do for these people if they aren't willing to help themselves; likewise, there isn't shit that you can do for your sister if she doesn't want help. However, you can and should help the kids; they can't help themselves.


We (me and my sister) did also deserve better while growing up under an alcoholic mother...but we survived. No sense in rehashing the coulda/shoulda/woulda's of that time.
I was posting in response to your post that your alcoholic mother was a capable mother. I was concerned that you thought that shit was normal. Also, I did want you to understand that if your nieces and nephews live to see adulthood, they might resent you if you do not make any effort to help them.

[JudyJudyJudy]

After having read the thread, I agree. She can't just run her sister's household for her. The level of judgement here astounds me.
No, she can't, and shouldn't, run her sister's household. However, she should step in to try to protect the kids.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Thank you RTL:) Your kind words help. That is what I needed after this long hateful flame-filled post.

Excuse me, I am doing my best to raise my family including our two lovely children. I work full time. I go to school full time.

I'm not the responsible person for my sister's kids, as much as posters like Boho would like to dispute. They are her kids not mine. You would have thought I was talking about "me" needing help by the way people have responded here today.
I agree that you aren't responsible for actually taking care of the kids. However, I disagree that you don't owe it to the kids to make sure that someone steps in to protect them.

[Tweet]

Taking 4 kids is unreasonable? Why? Listen, I've got kids, too. Yeah, 4 more would be a strain. But I don't see how anyone could sit by and just let that shit happen. But I guess since you survived, they will too,huh?Fucking unbelievable.

And while we're at it, there are plenty of us here who know something about "helping a sister like yours". I know all about it. And trust me, I GET getting to the point where you just can't do anymore or be around the addict. However, the issue at hand is the children. They can't help it that they're mother is an alcoholic. And they've got not a soul to get them out of that shit sucking situation out of that "huge family"? That's a fucking crying shame is what that is.

[jessiehannan]

http://www.childhelp.org/get_help

if they won't respond to just one call,t hen have your huge family call. every.single.adult. that is in your family.

[Tweet]

I agree that you aren't responsible for actually taking care of the kids. However, I disagree that you don't owe it to the kids to make sure that someone steps in to protect them.

Absolutely. Then again, I'm a firm believer in helping children when they cannot help themselves and especially..especially if it's my family.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Absolutely. Then again, I'm a firm believer in helping children when they cannot help themselves and especially..especially if it's my family.
I find that people are much quicker to call CPS (or the equivalent in this case) on nonfamily than on family.

[Bohemian]

I actually don't care if she helps her sister or not because my main concern are the children. Sure it would be nice if she could get help but as it's been said you can't help someone that doesn't want it. I've dealt with a family member that had a drug addiction and I know that there comes a time where for your own sanity you have to cut ties and step back because literally there is NOTHING more you can do to help them.

However I could not leave the children in that kind of environment. I wouldn't be able to even leave an animal to be neglected like that. If I personally could not take them on, I would not stop until the authorities took notice and did something. If being disgusted and angry by the op's lack of effort to help these kids makes me judgmental, I'll gladly wear that label. Calling once or twice and giving up and just letting these children live like this for years is fucking inexcusable.

[Shaunsmom]

Taking 4 kids is unreasonable? Why? Listen, I've got kids, too. Yeah, 4 more would be a strain. But I don't see how anyone could sit by and just let that shit happen. But I guess since you survived, they will too,huh?Fucking unbelievable.

And while we're at it, there are plenty of us here who know something about "helping a sister like yours". I know all about it. And trust me, I GET getting to the point where you just can't do anymore or be around the addict. However, the issue at hand is the children. They can't help it that they're mother is an alcoholic. And they've got not a soul to get them out of that shit sucking situation out of that "huge family"? That's a fucking crying shame is what that is.

Yup, you're entitled to your own bitchy opinion. That's right, keep throwing shit at me.

Why should our huge family try to bail her out? After all, she's created these four children.

That's okay too. I'm not asking you to understand nor have I said I'm sitting by doing nothing. But again, you're entitled to your own opinion;)

[Shaunsmom]

I actually don't care if she helps her sister or not because my main concern are the children. Sure it would be nice if she could get help but as it's been said you can't help someone that doesn't want it. I've dealt with a family member that had a drug addiction and I know that there comes a time where for your own sanity you have to cut ties and step back because literally there is NOTHING more you can do to help them.

However I could not leave the children in that kind of environment. I wouldn't be able to even leave an animal to be neglected like that. If I personally could not take them on, I would not stop until the authorities took notice and did something. If being disgusted and angry by the op's lack of effort to help these kids makes me judgmental, I'll gladly wear that label. Calling once or twice and giving up and just letting these children live like this for years is fucking inexcusable.

You too Boho. You are entitled to your own bitchy opinion. Thanks for understanding where I am at today with this:)

[Bohemian]

You too Boho. You are entitled to your own bitchy opinion. Thanks for understanding where I am at today with this:)


You are not even making sense. Whatever helps you live with yourself and sleep at night.

[Tweet]

Yup, you're entitled to your own bitchy opinion. That's right, keep throwing shit at me.

Why should our huge family try to bail her out? After all, she's created these four children.

That's okay too. I'm not asking you to understand nor have I said I'm sitting by doing nothing. But again, you're entitled to your own opinion;)


Yes, excuse me for feeling bitchy towards someone that just doesn't give a rat's ass because "it's not your responsibility". Don't want bitchy my opinions? Don't post this kind of stuff. And you are completely missing the point- no one is saying for you to bail her out. Helping those children = help for the children. People have said that over and over and over again. You are choosing to equate what we've actually said (helping the kids) with something completely different (bailing out your sister)

If you don't want people to think you are sitting around doing nothing, maybe you should consider not posting things like " they aren't my responsibility". That's a really 'who gives a flying fuck' attitude. I can only go by what you're saying, and yeah,it's pissing me off. I don't much care if you don't like it. My only concern here is that no one seems to be able or willing to help those kids. Yeah, she created them. So what? That means they should be left to live in squallor and filth with nothing to eat? That's what's so ugly about what you're posting. You seem to think it's just fine to throw up your hands and say, "Oh, well. They aren't my responsibility". Well, that sucks. It's too bad there isn't anyone to advocate for them.

[Tweet]

Oh, good grief. Stop with the pity party. You are not the only one who's had addiction in their life. You are not the only one. Put your big girl pants on and think about those kids.

[Bohemian]

Exactly Tweet. I can understand not being able to take the kids on into your house. I can understand not being able to help the mother. There is just no excuse for not making sure the authorities step in and help them. If it makes me a bitch to be disgusted by the op because for years she has let her sisters babies live in filth and fend for themselves with an alcoholic mother, so be it.

[Tweet]

Exactly Tweet. I can understand not being able to take the kids on into your house. I can understand not being able to help the mother. There is just no excuse for not making sure the authorities step in and help them. If it makes me a bitch to be disgusted by the op because for years she has let her sisters babies live in filth and fend for themselves with an alcoholic mother, so be it.


I agree wholeheartedly. I know not everyone can take them all in, but they could damn sure be doing other things until those kids called help. I'd be calling whoever I could on a daily basis. My problem is that I mistakenly think that just about anyone would do that.

[RaisingThemLeft]

I think some of the things people are saying on this thread are unexcusable. I'm not going to sit back and judge her for not being able to quit school and her job to take in these kids who are going to need a whole LOT of help. If it was my brother, yes I would take in his kids. But that is me and my life and not everyone is able to do that. The way some people are picking apart this poster is just cruel. Of course everyone feels for the children in the situation. That is no excuse to point fingers at the OP.

[DamnDrama]

From what I have read there are 4 kids who aren't anyone's priority right now.
And shaunsmom is a sorry excuse for a human being sitting by watching this.

[QuiltyConscience]

You know, I don't think SM really is just sitting there doing nothing. And she isn't a sorry excuse for a human being. Please.

It's easy to say that she should do this or that , because we are just hearing about it, just reading and we don't have the details. SM has been there all her life. She's had much longer to see that trying to help hasn't helped.

She's seen the judge take the kids and give them back, she's seen people bail her sister out again and again, and Legally she can't just march into the house and take the kids if cps won't get involved.

[3girls2luv]

OP I see that maybe you can not take all four kids but please call CPS or whoever every day until something gets done.

I think that is basically what everyone is asking you to do. Don't just step away from it because these kids could get really sick or worse and you just sit there with your hands up in the air and just say "not my kids, not my problem." This is why I think most posters are getting upset.

I personally am going to worry about those kids tonight as I am tucking my kids in bed with clean clothes and full bellies and I'm sure I won't be the only one.

You are the only one on this board who can help those kids.

[Amy_G_]

You know, I don't think SM really is just sitting there doing nothing. And she isn't a sorry excuse for a human being. Please.

It's easy to say that she should do this or that , because we are just hearing about it, just reading and we don't have the details. SM has been there all her life. She's had much longer to see that trying to help hasn't helped.

She's seen the judge take the kids and give them back, she's seen people bail her sister out again and again, and Legally she can't just march into the house and take the kids if cps won't get involved.

I agree.
those recommending that she call CPS and keep calling every day until they do something, um, after a while they just stop listening to your calls, putting your complaints into the "this person is just trying to stir up trouble."

If threats of CPS gets the mom to do some laundry,
and clean the house (with or without help from the outside) that's a start. I would probably help do laundry, clean house, look on craigslist for a free or cheap washing machine. I'd do what I could to make sure the kids were fed and clothed and cared for in the house they are in. cause getting them removed from that house would most likely be something beyond my control. if that meant I was "enabling" the alcoholic person, I'd view it as "enabling" the kids to have food, clean clothes and a clean home if only for a limited time.

Even if CPS shows up and the place is a disaster area, it doesn't mean they'll take the kids automatically. In many states, counseling and help are primary tools in order to keep the families together. Foster homes are limited and often shitty. In most states, with the economic crisis, CPS is having hours and staff cuts--they don't have time to deal with dirty houses, when they have to prioritize to get the kids out of houses where they are being beat and physically abused, and those that are dirty and a bit neglected aren't gonna always get the notice from CPS that you might think they deserve.

[_Viva_]

You know, I don't think SM really is just sitting there doing nothing. And she isn't a sorry excuse for a human being. Please.

It's easy to say that she should do this or that , because we are just hearing about it, just reading and we don't have the details. SM has been there all her life. She's had much longer to see that trying to help hasn't helped.

She's seen the judge take the kids and give them back, she's seen people bail her sister out again and again, and Legally she can't just march into the house and take the kids if cps won't get involved.

Yep. I'd be damn frustrated if I was SM.

[Babyhellfire]

I agree.
those recommending that she call CPS and keep calling every day until they do something, um, after a while they just stop listening to your calls, putting your complaints into the "this person is just trying to stir up trouble."

If threats of CPS gets the mom to do some laundry,
and clean the house (with or without help from the outside) that's a start. I would probably help do laundry, clean house, look on craigslist for a free or cheap washing machine. I'd do what I could to make sure the kids were fed and clothed and cared for in the house they are in. cause getting them removed from that house would most likely be something beyond my control. if that meant I was "enabling" the alcoholic person, I'd view it as "enabling" the kids to have food, clean clothes and a clean home if only for a limited time.

Even if CPS shows up and the place is a disaster area, it doesn't mean they'll take the kids automatically. In many states, counseling and help are primary tools in order to keep the families together. Foster homes are limited and often shitty. In most states, with the economic crisis, CPS is having hours and staff cuts--they don't have time to deal with dirty houses, when they have to prioritize to get the kids out of houses where they are being beat and physically abused, and those that are dirty and a bit neglected aren't gonna always get the notice from CPS that you might think they deserve.

ICAM.

[tata]

I think some of the things people are saying on this thread are unexcusable. I'm not going to sit back and judge her for not being able to quit school and her job to take in these kids who are going to need a whole LOT of help. If it was my brother, yes I would take in his kids. But that is me and my life and not everyone is able to do that. The way some people are picking apart this poster is just cruel. Of course everyone feels for the children in the situation. That is no excuse to point fingers at the OP.

Got room on this bench for me?

[tata]

Amy_G, I agree with you, as well.

I have little patience anymore for addicts, but I'd make an exception for my brother (a recovering addict) if he relapsed. He has custody of his youngest daughter. I'd buy him a fridge, I'd wash his kid's clothes (but not his!), I'd even buy groceries for the girl and teach her how to cook it (granted, she's 10), and if necessary, hide it. I believe in my heart that his daughter would rather live in filth with him than be taken by the state (even if she had a sparkling-clean room).

[SingingMom]

Look, Shaunsmom, I know it's frustrating to watch CPS "do nothing". However, how do you know they have done nothing? Did your sister tell you? Did a worker tell you?

What you hear from a mom in this situation is often not exactly what the worker said.

In your shoes, I would go over to her house and observe problems with your own eyes. Then call CPS and tell them. Tell them the house is habitually filthy. Describe the filth. Tell them your sister is an alcoholic and you're concerned for the kids safety and health.

Call the kids' teacher and mention the dirty clothes and the alcoholism. Teachers are mandated reporters- they can verify that the kids often come to school in unwashed clothes. And then you have two fresh allegations for CPS.

In my own personal experience, I have found that it can sometimes take repeated calls to CPS to generate an actual worker going out there. But when multiple people call and report neglect, eventually something happens.

You have to remember that those workers hear much worse allegations every day. But they also hear false reports from vindictive ex-friends and family members.

CPS is unlikely to remove the kids because of filth.

But an alcoholic is not really a great nurturer for young children. They could really be in danger at some point- and the kids need you, and other family members, to keep an eye on them and speak up for them.

[EvilAmy]

If CPS is not responding call ICW. If CPS knows she is Native American they may be blowing it off as heasay in their feeble attempt to pass it on the ICW.

Okay now that I read past page one I strongly think CPS just doesn't want to muck with it.
It's time for either CPS or Indian Child Welfare to step in and help her. Since all four children are enrolled members of our tribe, CPS has no say. They can initiate contact with ICW if they feel the situation needs it. ICW will then take control. My question is: if she was able to manipulate the ICW case workers this time like she did last time...then what?

[EvilAmy]

I'll add that I agree with QC, AmyG et' al.

[JudyJudyJudy]

But an alcoholic is not really a great nurturer for young children. They could really be in danger at some point- and the kids need you, and other family members, to keep an eye on them and speak up for them.
This is where I am.

I do want to make a comment on something that was said earlier in the thread. I don't remember who said it (I think it was a couple of people), but somebody said that taking in four kids shouldn't be too big of a responsibility. For me, it would be. I know that I'm neither physically, mentally, nor financially capable of taking on four more kids (one or two maybe). I don't think there is anything wrong with knowing your limits. However, I still go back to SM's comment because someone has to speak up for the kids.

[Cosita]

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE THE GODDAMNED WASHING MACHINE DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER!1!!ELEVEN

The alcoholism and the neglect that has resulted in the filthy living conditions, that is the problem.


She's not the alcoholic!
The older sister who is cleaning up dirty sister's place is the booze hound, I got that from the first post. LOL

And I cannot believe that OP would openly flame her own sister like this on a parenting board, it's apparent she doesn't give a flying fly. I would be over there helping her, or making calls to help those kids, not bitching and being an attention whore here.

[Cosita]

HELLO PEOPLE! I want to post this again.

THE MOM IN QUESTION IS NOT THE ALCOHOLIC!! JESUS PEOPLE.
The older sister is, also with 4 kids.

[ima062002]

I wouldn't bother with CPS but focus on ICW directly. Or don't they do anything unless CPS 'refers' them a case? I agree that taking in 4 kids can be too much for little sister, but OP has extended family, and surely those four children could be taken care of by the family together? If everybody chipped in - not for sis, for the kids - to try to keep them together or if need be - for physical and mental reasons - split them among family. I too have a hard time wrapping my head around how the family doesn't move heaven and earth to get these kids out of their living situation.

[JudyJudyJudy]

She's not the alcoholic!
The older sister who is cleaning up dirty sister's place is the booze hound, I got that from the first post. LOL

And I cannot believe that OP would openly flame her own sister like this on a parenting board, it's apparent she doesn't give a flying fly. I would be over there helping her, or making calls to help those kids, not bitching and being an attention whore here.

HELLO PEOPLE! I want to post this again.

THE MOM IN QUESTION IS NOT THE ALCOHOLIC!! JESUS PEOPLE.
The older sister is, also with 4 kids.

No, you're wrong. The older sister, the sister with four kids, and the alcoholic sister are all one and the same.

[JudyJudyJudy]

For Cosita (post 45):

Older sis is the one that is the alcoholic with four kids.

[Sunnie]

I don't know how ICW works, but CPS would check for food in the refrigerator as well as looking at whether or not the house is clean.

Is there anyone in the family who could take care of these kids?


Heh. Not necessarily. When they were called on me for supposedly starving my daughter, they never checked for food. All they did was bitch that I hadn't vacuumed in 2 days and tell me that last night's dinner dishes on the counter was a health hazard. *rolleyes*

[Tweet]

I agree.
those recommending that she call CPS and keep calling every day until they do something, um, after a while they just stop listening to your calls, putting your complaints into the "this person is just trying to stir up trouble."

If threats of CPS gets the mom to do some laundry,
and clean the house (with or without help from the outside) that's a start. I would probably help do laundry, clean house, look on craigslist for a free or cheap washing machine. I'd do what I could to make sure the kids were fed and clothed and cared for in the house they are in. cause getting them removed from that house would most likely be something beyond my control. if that meant I was "enabling" the alcoholic person, I'd view it as "enabling" the kids to have food, clean clothes and a clean home if only for a limited time.

Even if CPS shows up and the place is a disaster area, it doesn't mean they'll take the kids automatically. In many states, counseling and help are primary tools in order to keep the families together. Foster homes are limited and often shitty. In most states, with the economic crisis, CPS is having hours and staff cuts--they don't have time to deal with dirty houses, when they have to prioritize to get the kids out of houses where they are being beat and physically abused, and those that are dirty and a bit neglected aren't gonna always get the notice from CPS that you might think they deserve.


From the sounds of it, the OP doesn't want to make sure any of that gets done. Because they live across town. I agree that making sure the kids have food and clothing etc is not enabling. My comments ( I take it your addressing mine here) about enabling were directed to Jessie earlier concerning appliances. Just giving her appliances is not going to ensure that they are fed or that their clothes are clean, imho. I think someone would have to physically be checking in to ensure all of that.

And this sounds like a hell of a lot more than simply a dirty house. The OP said it was not only filthy but that they go to school with filthy clothes ( I wonder if the school has reported anything) and likely no food to eat. I don't think CPS or anyone else should come out just for a little dirt. But that's not what she's described here in the thread. Not to mention that the children have already been removed because of neglect and then given back

I feel for her (the OP) that she has a family member with this disease and that she's grown up with it, too. However, it is infuriating to me to see anyone just throw their hands in the air and say "not my kids, not my responsibility!" . My concern is for them. I get that she cannot take them all in. Calling CPS is not the only route here. I'm not trying to "pick her apart" but I really think it is morally wrong to not do anything simply because they aren't her kids.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Heh. Not necessarily. When they were called on me for supposedly starving my daughter, they never checked for food. All they did was bitch that I hadn't vacuumed in 2 days and tell me that last night's dinner dishes on the counter was a health hazard. *rolleyes*
That's crazy. Even after you were accused of not feeding her, they didn't check to see if you had food?! I know someone who had CPS called on her because her daughter was posting seductive pictures on MySpace, and they checked her refrigerator!

[Sunnie]

I think they were too lazy to try and climb over the baby gate to get into my kitchen. ROFL

[JudyJudyJudy]

At least you had a baby gate. :p

[Babyhellfire]

From the sounds of it, the OP doesn't want to make sure any of that gets done. Because they live across town. I agree that making sure the kids have food and clothing etc is not enabling. My comments ( I take it your addressing mine here) about enabling were directed to Jessie earlier concerning appliances. Just giving her appliances is not going to ensure that they are fed or that their clothes are clean, imho. I think someone would have to physically be checking in to ensure all of that.

And this sounds like a hell of a lot more than simply a dirty house. The OP said it was not only filthy but that they go to school with filthy clothes ( I wonder if the school has reported anything) and likely no food to eat. I don't think CPS or anyone else should come out just for a little dirt. But that's not what she's described here in the thread. Not to mention that the children have already been removed because of neglect and then given back

I feel for her (the OP) that she has a family member with this disease and that she's grown up with it, too. However, it is infuriating to me to see anyone just throw their hands in the air and say "not my kids, not my responsibility!" . My concern is for them. I get that she cannot take them all in. Calling CPS is not the only route here. I'm not trying to "pick her apart" but I really think it is morally wrong to not do anything simply because they aren't her kids.

I absolutely agree with that- but I also agreed with what Amy said- It did sound as though you were saying that trying to help the children beyond just reporting(which alreay sounds to be exhausted) was enabling the mom.

I agree more so about repeatedly calling CPS. Chances are if she has already had her children taken away for neglect, AND sends the kids to school disgusting CPS is already monitoring her,and repeatedly calling them doesn't appear to be the answer.

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

[Tweet]

I absolutely agree with that- but I also agreed with what Amy said- It did sound as though you were saying that trying to help the children beyond just reporting(which alreay sounds to be exhausted) was enabling the mom.

I agree more so about repeatedly calling CPS. Chances are if she has already had her children taken away for neglect, AND sends the kids to school disgusting CPS is already monitoring her,and repeatedly calling them doesn't appear to be the answer.

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

Oh. No, I was only referring to the appliance issue as far as the enabling goes.I think at the very least it would be great if someone were able to see to it that they have food to eat and clean clothes to wear. However, it seems to me that OP herself sees that as bailing her sister out. I think that's the wrong way to look at it. It almost seems to me that the feelings she has toward the sister because of her alcoholism is getting somewhat directed towards the children. Except they can't help it and helping them would not be "bailing her out".

Anyway. People did give her some good suggestions. I hope she takes them. I am still not sure what help she wanted to get from this thread. She didn't seem to interested in anything anyone had to say, other than responding to those of us that got pissed off reading her responses. Hopefully someone will step up. Who knows, if one friend called , maybe the school has as well.

[jessiehannan]

I woke up thinking about these poor kids. :(

[ima062002]

me too...

[3girls2luv]

Me too :(

[JudyJudyJudy]

I've been thinking about the kids as well. :(

[Tweet]

I've been actually trying to push it back, but it's been on my mind as well.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Earlier when I was fixing Jacob something to eat, I was wondering if the kids had anything to eat. I guess at least they get lunch and hopefully breakfast five days a week at school. :(

[Tweet]

I missed where she said they ate at school. That's a relief. I feel very bad about the whole thing.

I know how bad it gets with the 5 of us if we are sick or if I have a flare up and DH is working OT and laundry and dishes pile up for a day or at the worst 2 days. It's absolute chaos and it's amazing how quickly the pergo gets dirty and the bathroom sink gets dirty. Stuff piles up very,very quickly on counters here if the paperwork isn't put away or shredded. I cannot imagine it if it was literally months and months of just shit everywhere. That is more than just a mess for a bit..that is filth and with filth is health issues. I just can't stand the thought of them not having any place to go.

[jessiehannan]

While not the biggest issue, the thought of them going to bed w/dirty sheets and blankets and dirty clothes really bothers me.
I get physically ill if I wear dirty clothes or go too many days with out bathing.

[Camille]

I'm not really sure why that is relevant.

Well, because being a whore is always relevant, MrsKitty, didn't you get the memo? :rolleyes:

[JudyJudyJudy]

I missed where she said they ate at school. That's a relief. I feel very bad about the whole thing.

She didn't say they did. I'm just hoping so. I know we had students who only ate at school. :(