3 day old cries on breast

[EggNogAdam]

Our 3 day old will not latch on. Well, that's not true. When an LC or some other such person tries to teach my wife and I something new the baby does decently fine. This gets our hopes up and we try it all again later... only to have her WAIL and WAIL and WAIL. I've read all types of articles/forums and finally decided to join one.
thrush: http://www.webmd.com/oral-health/tc/thrush-topic-overview
preparing: http://www.newbornbabyzone.com/feeding-nutrition/preparing-for-midnight-feedings/
kellymom: http://kellymom.com/bf/concerns/baby/fussy-while-nursing.html#forceful
random: http://www.drspock.com/discussion/message/0,1812,94046,00.html

No one has had this SPECIFIC question; such a young baby not latching, not drinking, losing weight (1lb in 2 days) and SCREAMING from the time she's positioned until the time she's taken away from the breast.
She usually begins to suckle on her hand immediately after finding it.
My wife is in tears and I am forced to finger-feed the baby with some formula. She'll suck 10ml of Infamil out of a tube in 2 minutes but won't give a breast 5 seconds without screaming. What gives? We have another LC coming over tomorrow. Hopefully baby will act up so someone will be able to identify what the problem is.

help?

-EggNogAdam & Family-

[StillSingingMom]

Well.... I'll try to think of something helpful. But it sounds like you need more in real life help, honestly. You guys sound like you're having a really rough time.

Some babies have oral aversions. Vigorous suctioning or other necessary procedures can leave the baby unwilling to tolerate having the breast in the mouth. For nursing, you need to get a big chunk of breast pretty far in the mouth.

You can try having your wife pump so that let down is already established before trying to latch the baby on. Then the baby is immediately rewarded for nursing.

You can also try to latch baby on after feeding some formula (or pumped breastmilk) so that baby is not screaming hungry. (Maybe try giving her 5 mLs first?) If she's willing to suck on her little hand for entertainment, trying to get her to suckle would be good both for milk supply and for latch development.

It's normal for babies to lose some weight after birth. I assume your doctor is watching that issue.

[EggNogAdam]

doctor is definitely watching the issue with the weight. That alone is a stressful situation. I just had another session of scream-feeding, not 3 minutes ago. We have a consultant coming by tomorrow. This does nothing for my wife's morale, as the baby will suck on a blanket, her finger, my finger, my shoulder, wife's hair, pacifier, anything but a real nipple.

speaking of let-down, I don't even think my wife has real milk yet because we've only had like... 2 good feeds in the 3 days of baby's life.

tragic.

if anyone else has anything to add I'd gladly read anything and try some things.

thanks,

EggNog -n- fam

[Amy_G_]

If baby is not breastfeeding, then your wife needs to pump seriously to bring in her milk supply.
Give baby plenty of time at the breast--not forcing the nursing issue, but face to face with the breasts, laying on mom's stomach with the breasts right there, non-confrontational hanging out. I agree that deep suctioning can really set baby up for an aversion to anything orally, but they have to get past that to survive. Try breastfeeding positon after giving a smaller amount of milk by finger feeder, try giving it using a Supplemental nursing system AT the breast, try getting baby latched on while they are asleep--or half asleep, don't let baby get to the point of crying, or they get too upset to even try anymore and then they shut down.

get a 2nd or 3rd opinion, consider getting ahold of LLL in your area as well for more hands on.

There is not just ONE answer for a problem like this--there is rarely just one answer for a breastfeeding problem--which makes it an art, and very frustrating at times because it's hard to find someone who has your exact problem.

Realize as long as you get baby nutrition in as breastfeeding friendly way as possible, and you ensure your wife's supply of milk comes in and the breast is emptied regularly to maintain that supply--you have TIME to get this figured out. There are women here who refused the breast for different reasons, but who were eventually able to get baby to the breast. Sometimes it takes baby to "get over" whatever birth trauma they are feeling. I've known of babies who had bruised heads who would wail whenever held in any way that would put any kind of pressure on their head or neck--this may also be a concern, but time wil heal that as well.
this is probably a more helpful link at kellymom
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/baby/back-to-breast.html

and especially ensuring a good milk supply
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/maintainsupply-pump.html

I would encourage several days of round the clock pumping every 2 hours to bring in a good supply. that milk can be used to supplement. If she is able to pump ANY colostrum, give that first before any other formula, as it's very important stuff.

After a few days she can probably drop pumping to about 10 times a day, with the longest time between pumping sessions in the middle of the night to get some sleep, but aiming for every 3-4 hours at night like a newborn. Once her milk comes in , any milk left in the breast sitting around, will signal her system to make less milk. Be sure she has a good quality pump on hand.

Give baby LOTS of opportunity to be around the breast,
and give baby LOTS of opportunity to try to latch and feed. Every hour or two, or pick a couple of feedings in the middle of the day to give it a really really good try if everyone is getting too upset. give it a try, settle everyone down if they get upset, feed a small amount with finger feeder, and then try again. Sometimes baby has to eat a bit in order to be happy and relaxed enough to concentrate on eating. ;)

Don't give up.

[PositiveKrista]

First off, you are a *great* husband for supporting your wife like this!!! I just joined this website specifically to respond to you!

Secondly, I was EXACTLY right where your wife is now, only 6 months ago:

I got, quite literally, 12 hours of sleep total over my Daughter's 5 days in the hospital. After a fantastic birth (even considering the 2 hours of pushing after 3 rounds of pitocin and 36 hours of inducement due to lowering amniotic fluid), our beautiful Daughter had jaundice, and it was not a good situation for the tough hours until she stabilized. She still had to be under the lamps for 48 hours, and just barely stayed out of the NICU. She was not a preemie, in fact she was 5 days past due. It was a very stressful time after her wonderful birth!

So forward to us getting home, I was absolutely exhausted, nothing is coming out to feed my child with, and I am instead feeding her formula, which helped to process the jaundice, but I had had visions of immediately nurturing and feeding this little person I'd waited my whole life to meet. Instead, her (at best) lazy latching and (at worst) blood-curdling cries made me feel like a absolute failure. Again and again, try-and-cry, try-and-cry... But I had committed to breastfeeding, and focusing like a laser on that fact helped me to persevere. There was no possibility of 'failure', because I was going to give it the best effort I could. *IF* nothing worked, and after *ALL* efforts were exhausted, I would accept that it wasn't going to work, and that would just have to be that. I had no timeline for BF success, I just accepted that it was going to take a huge amount of effort and commitment! I wouldn't trade the BF experience for anything, knowing the gift I am constantly giving my daughter.

For us, it took about 10 days. Ten looooong days of trying and crying and acceptance that I was NOT the reason for her distress, this was just her present response. When she would freak out, I would remind myself to NOT push it too hard. Somewhere, I read that The Breast should be "a happy place", so I too would recite that ("The Breast is a Happy Place!") to myself, out loud, quite often, in acknowledging that that particular try had not resulted in a happy latch. If she freaked, I stopped. It became a little family joke, and my Husband's excellent sense of humor helped to ease the transitions from attempt to attempt. Eventually, I could do it with a smile... I kept trying, sometimes each 1/2 hour, and if it wasn't time, I would stop and not get stressed, which of course would only have stressed her... That is when I began to see the tide turn, when I accepted that she was going to latch when she was good and ready, and if she wasn't ready to "go to her happy place" just yet, well, that was going to have to be ok. So at 1:15 AM, on about day 10, I was slowly dancing around the kitchen, trying to soothe the crying babe, when I decided it was time; a wave of silent determination washed over me: I looked right in her eyes, got her into a football hold on the left side, and gently placed her on..... And then it happened. Just like that... Not an overnight success, but a success during the overnight!!! ha ha ha

It took many weeks, but we were able to slowly replace formula feedings with breastfeeding, and we are now almost exclusively breastfeeding, and have been for the last 2 months or so. We use a little formula here and there if I'm away from her and my Husband runs out of pumped milk. It is not always easy, and I have been sore for almost the whole time, but she is getting what she needs, and that was my mission.

Pumping helps bring milk in, and I have switched from electrical pumping to hand-held pumping, which is so much easier and less painful than the Medela Pump-In-Pain, - oops, I mean Pump-in-Style - that I had been using. I have a good Medela hand held from the hospital, and I just love the little thing, no noise, I can stop it immediately at any moment, and it is much quicker than the electrical pump, even though it is only one side at a time:

http://www.medelabreastfeedingus.com/products/breast-pumps/157/harmony-breastpump

Eating oatmeal, bananas, and other galactagogues really helped me a lot for milk production, and it might be a good thing for your wife to try as well. And DRINK WATER!!! :)

I truly feel for your wife, and for you, as I know how hard it was for my Husband to see me so upset... Hang in there, and help your wife get as much rest as she possibly, possibly can. Get some outside help: neighbors, friends, family, anyone trustworthy, and get some rest. It does wonders.

BEST WISHES TO THE THREE OF YOU! :) :) :)

[tifttu]

I don't think there's much I can add to what the others have written. But I wanted to send my positive wishes and remind your wife, again and again and again, that it's NOT her. I didn't have the issues you describe, but both of mine went through nursing strikes where I thought they hated me and hated my milk. It's a terrible feeling and I'm so sorry you guys are going through this.

[EggNogAdam]

thank you all for your support. By the way, if I run into a solution or whenever this resolves I'll post for others to read. Thanks again. Keep the encouragement coming - my wife reads this and smiles!

=Eggnogadam=

[Amy_G_]

Be sure to get your family to an LC or get one to come see you at home. This may need more hands on than we can give thru a keyboard! ;)

[MadisonsMommy]

My newest little girl was 6lb 3oz at birth and dropped to 5lb 12 oz... Keep trying at the breastfeeding... My little one was very jaundice at 3 days old and I had to pump without nursing for 24 hours... I pumped every three hours around the clock for 24 hours... It really helped my supply to come in... Stick with it you are doing great!!

[Nipple_nectar]

Welcome to the boards Eggnogadam & positivekrista!:) Excellent first post! We really need moms like you sharing the BTDT and all the nitty gritty, thank you!

Eggnogadam, make sure that your wife is using a hospital grade pump, they are stronger and designed for all day use, how is the pumping coming along? It is excellent that you are finger feeding, so you are aware of nipple confusion and the hurdles associated with it: www.breastfeeding.com/all_about/all_about_confusion.html

If baby has lost one pound in 24 hours that would really warrant serious supervision from more than just the pediatrician, get your self an Internationally Board Certified lactation Consultant or IBCLC, your baby needs to be evaluated ASAP for latch issues, perhaps she may be tongue tied and not able to effectively transfer the milk. The LC can also appropriately supervise the weight gain issues and even weigh baby pre and post feed to confirm exactly how much baby is taking in.

Brings me to my next question, confirming input is as easy as confirming output, keep track of wet diapers, you need to see a minimum of six wet in a 24 hour period, if you have that, you can relax.

Use the pump, to prime the nipple, making it pointy and easy to grab onto, pumping for five minutes will be sufficient. If mom is large breasted, rolling a washcloth and placing it under the breast being used can help tremendously for positioning, is your wife using any positioning tools? I highly recommend the boppy, it is really helpful for aligning baby with the nipple. Also using the football hold will grant you more control during the feeding.

[EggNogAdam]

Alriiiight!! Some happy news to report today.

We had an LC come to the house today. 2 hours later we knew that inverted nipples (something that 2 other 'specialists' said my wife did not have) are the main cause of this distress. The baby, let's call her Frankenstein, was working SO SO SO SO hard at feeding and getting so so so so little that she was wailing in distress. Also, the not-really-protruding nature of the nipple being supplied to the baby was making it easy for the baby to push the nipple out of her mouth with her little tongue.

My wife has been prescribed to wear Nipple Shells during the day time hours and Nipple Shields during feeding times. In short these things are semi-hard plastic things that fit onto the breast to make the nipple more accessible to the baby. For more information on these devices check out these links:
http://www.medelabreastfeedingus.com/tips-and-solutions/112/nipple-shields
http://www.breastfeed-essentials.com/allaboutshells.html
Here are some other threads that mention nipple shields and breast shells
http://www.breastfeeding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41731&highlight=nipple+shells
http://www.breastfeeding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37385&highlight=nipple+shells
http://www.breastfeeding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35292&highlight=nipple+shells
and a link to the wiki for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles just for fun:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_Mutant_Ninja_Turtles

I am currently witnessing the 4th successful feeding of the baby using these methods. I will report back with tweaks and tips later in the week.

Summary: If you have a teeny tiny baby that is having latching issues you should ask half a dozen people about inverted nipples and Nipple Shields and Breast Shells. About $35 has given me a completely scream-free evening and what seems like it might be a sleep-filled night.

-=eggnogadam=-:hugegrin:

[Amy_G_]

GREAT!
Once baby gets older, you can come here and we do have some advice for weaning from the nipple shields. Long term use of them has lead to lowered milk supply, as baby often doesn't sufficiently drain the breast.
After a while, your wife probably won't have to wear the nipple shells anymore, as usually the nipple begins to protrude on it's own.

And yes, often it takes talking to more than one LC to find out what the answer is, so I often recommend calling for a second opinion. Size of baby doesn't matter so much, as if nipples are inverted, it takes a lot to get a baby latched on. Sometimes pumping right before latching on can help with the latch as well.

[tifttu]

I am so happy to hear such happy news!! Welcome to the wonderful world of bfing :)

Amy G is right about the shields. After a while, the nipple won't need them anymore and baby can be weaned off. Then all mom will need to have for a feeding is herself and that's sooooo nice.

[Nipple_nectar]

Wonderful progress! :::clapping:::

I had to use a shield with DD (dear daughter) #1, she refused the breast until we offered the shield and with alot of resistance, quiet was finally achieved:) We did wean from the shield after 4 weeks though because we had weight gain issues. Most babies do fine with it but there is the rare circumstance ( we fell into that category) when baby will develop nipple preference or confusion and then complicated by insufficient weight gain.

We just kept introducing the breast without the shield at EVERY nursing session and wrestled to the point of getting upset, then we switched to the shield in place. We got to the point after a couple of weeks of introducing the second side with no objection and pretty soon, she was such an efficient nurser, she didn't care:)

I wish you continued success and some much needed rest! Will you be staying home with mom and baby for a while? Try and get mom to sleep when baby sleeps, it is imperative that she get proper rest and nutrition to build a great supply.

[ima062002]

Your wife needs to pump asap - like a newborn would (i.e. 10-12 times a day).

Rebirthing (which is done in the bathtub) or letting the baby self attach is another thing she could try. The baby is placed naked (only a diaper) on the naked chest of mom, belly to belly. Nothing is done, other than gently guiding the baby if s/he overshoots (even newborns can frog hop) or slides to the side, and depending on the density and size of moms breasts some women need to hold their breasts. Other than that, the infant is left alone and will very often start to peck around and then self attach.

It could be that your wife's milk hasn't come in yet as well. So pumping is very important right now.

See here for some videos, although I think that both infants start out too high up. Also, I would not try this upright, nor flat but about 45 degrees declined - in a lazyboy if you have or the sofa/bed with comfy pillows propped up:
http://www.drjacknewman.com/video/baby%20led%20mother%20guided%20success.wmv
http://www.drjacknewman.com/video/baby%20led%20mother%20guided%20started%20upright%2 0left%20breast,%20latches%20-1.wmv

Most mommies will be able to relax nursing like this as well. If your wife can gently squeeze her breasts so that a few droplets of milk are on the nipples, that can help sometimes to jump start things.

Also, the best time to try this is when your daughter is showing the earliest feeding cues - Smacking or licking lips, opening and closing mouth, sucking on lips, tongue, hands, fingers etc. Do not try this when the baby is crying; this needs to be done when everybody is calm.

[ima062002]

http://www.nbci.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=6&Itemid=13 in general might be helpful to watch.

[ima062002]

Sorry, I didn't read the updates.

Great job!!!

[EggNogAdam]

one last wrap-up. The baby is doing well now. The doctor isn't impressed with how much weight she is NOT gaining but baby is eating well and is currently an Olympic Pooper. My wife has turned into an Olympic Pooper too, but that's another story for another forum.
Much thanks for the help you all put forward and once again - Nipple Shields!!

=Dadam=

[Nipple_nectar]

Bravo!! Is your wife using a shield still? That may be the culprit for sufficient weight gain issues, it was in our case.

Once we weaned from the shield and learned to do breast compression while she nursed, we had a significant gain. We also used a finger feeder after each nursing session which helped pack on the extra calories with minimal effort.

Thanks for the update, it is nice to hear from you again:)